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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old February 1 2014, 01:36 AM   #241
sonak
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The Overlord wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I think that NEM and what all the Star Trek movies lack is a sympathetic villain. One badd ass guy/girl who the audience can secretly barrack for.
A good villain makes the hero seem better. By making Shinzon so pathetic it makes Picard look weak when he can't defeat him.
The same applies to the TOS and nuTrek movies as well. There was potential to have sympathy for Khan but it is ruined by all the senseless killing.

In one Star Trek movie I'd like there to be an anti-hero who the hero and the audience regrets their demise. I'm thinking female Romulan Commander or someone like Sran.

I think that Sybok(if we consider him a villain), Soran, and Ru'afo were all somewhat sympathetic in different ways. Sybok wasn't violent, he was on a religious quest. Soran had lost his home and family and wanted to return to someplace he was involuntarily taken from. Ru'afo was kicked off his home planet and forced to watch himself and his followers age and decay while the people who kicked them off stayed young and pretty.

YMMV
Frankly Ru'afo did not get enough time or character development to be sympathetic, just a back story that was mentioned off hand. He was just an annoying, whiny jerk through out the film.

To each his own-I find that it makes watching Insurrection more tolerable if I root for Ru'afo during the film.
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Old February 2 2014, 02:36 AM   #242
HaventGotALife
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Mr Light wrote: View Post
I've been doing a bit of a Trek marathon lately and I just finished watching Nemesis. As like I remembered, this is a solid movie and I don't understand why it's so reviled!

It's got a great story with amazing action scenes in it. The opening dirt jeep chase is a nice bit of rare on-location Trek action that looks great. The space battle between the Ent-E and the Scimitar is absolutely amazing. I had forgotten two Romulan Warbirds joined the fight at one point. And when the Ent-E rams the ship like that? Or how about Picard flying a shuttle INSIDE the enemy ship? It's great stuff!

Shinzon is a good idea for a villain. An evil clone of Picard from the Romulans. And he's played by Tom Hardy! It's nice to finally use the Romulans as the main villain in a movie, though it is unfortunate that they decided to invent the Remen race to do it.

My only complaints about this film:
--Worf has nothing to do, like every other movie. This always confuses me as I thought Worf was a very popular character. Why are the movies the Picard and Data Show?
--The middle section of the movie is pretty slow. But the last hour is non-stop action so I guess that makes up for it.
--I could have done without the B4 blatant character backup of Data introduced in the same movie as his death.

But this was a good movie with a good sense of closure to the franchise. You have Riker and Troi marrying and leaving the ship and Data dying... it felt like an ending.

Obviously it bombed hard at the box office because it came out in the same period as Harry Potter 2, Die Another Day, and Two Towers.
I voted that it's good. I enjoy the interplay between Picard and Shinzon. The meat of the movie is not the action, for me. The meat of the movie is asking the question "What it means to be human?"

In the day of shootings and violence, cyber-bullying, and movies that perpetuate the idea that a man is in his circumstances, Nemesis dares to make the argument, "It's never too late to change. And a man can overcome his circumstances." I think it was brave to show Picard at his breaking point.

Where the movie fails, in my opinion, is the action sequences. They are waay too long. They feel like the movie just stops and we have a little fun, and then we go back to the "boring" stuff that actually makes it a movie. Like, for instance, the musical cue after Picard says that the Enterprise must stop the Scimitar. It's a march, it's glorious music. It's exciting. Picard wasn't like that. It was Sisko that would do that. He was the guy who toured the ship and talked to Guinan about history. The ramming of the two ships was a low point, especially the relatively b-rate dialogue and performance coming out of Patrick Stewart's mouth. I turn off the movie when Riker battles the Viceroy.

Another problem is that Hardy is playing a straight bad guy throughout the film. His voice is gruff and his lines are like that of a Batman villain. He really isn't interesting to listen to. And that is why the audience doesn't really connect with the conflict within Shinzon about what kind of man he will be.

B-4 bothers me in how clunky he is handled. I don't like the forced moral dilemma of downloading Data's memory. The only scene with him I like, because it shows Data's disappointment, is when he cannot move. He turns up, and I want to shut off the movie.

All in all, it's the second best TNG movie, but I would rank it about 500 of the 650 movies I remember seeing in my lifetime.
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Old February 2 2014, 03:15 AM   #243
Jeyl
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
In the day of shootings and violence, cyber-bullying, and movies that perpetuate the idea that a man is in his circumstances, Nemesis dares to make the argument, "It's never too late to change. And a man can overcome his circumstances." I think it was brave to show Picard at his breaking point.
I'm totally down for Picard trying to convince a bad guy to stop what he's doing so nobody has to fight to the death, but the way Picard goes about it is just wrong. Aspiring to be a "better person" is a very vague point that, when seen from Shinzon's point of view, is something that he's already accomplished. Think about his backstory for a second. Shinzon literally went from being a slave to the Romulans when he was just a child to liberating the entire Reman race and becoming Romulus' new Praetor. That is by definition "overcoming one's circumstances" to be a better person. I really don't blame Shinzon for not wanting to "conform" to Picard's way of thinking when he doesn't even get into specifics and lies about his condition.
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Old February 2 2014, 04:02 AM   #244
Mr Light
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I just read they wanted to have an entire fleet of ships in the fight but could only afford the two extra Warbirds. That would have been AMAZING!!!
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Old February 2 2014, 04:30 AM   #245
HaventGotALife
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
In the day of shootings and violence, cyber-bullying, and movies that perpetuate the idea that a man is in his circumstances, Nemesis dares to make the argument, "It's never too late to change. And a man can overcome his circumstances." I think it was brave to show Picard at his breaking point.
I'm totally down for Picard trying to convince a bad guy to stop what he's doing so nobody has to fight to the death, but the way Picard goes about it is just wrong. Aspiring to be a "better person" is a very vague point that, when seen from Shinzon's point of view, is something that he's already accomplished. Think about his backstory for a second. Shinzon literally went from being a slave to the Romulans when he was just a child to liberating the entire Reman race and becoming Romulus' new Praetor. That is by definition "overcoming one's circumstances" to be a better person. I really don't blame Shinzon for not wanting to "conform" to Picard's way of thinking when he doesn't even get into specifics and lies about his condition.
It's not all that subtle and vague. Picard is talking about not letting violence and hatred control him. That the response that Shinzon had to being oppressed was to hate his oppressors and to conquer in order to save his civilization. Picard is appealing to Shinzon to choose the path of his childhood dreams (hope and curiosity), being better than "wasting [his] life in a blaze of hatred."
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Old February 2 2014, 04:14 PM   #246
Isolinear
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The film is average at best, so I voted average. An ok dumb action movie. A terrible TNG-finale.

The opening scene on Romulus was fantastic, and promised an epic Romulan story. Instead we got Remans. What a disappointment.

I kind of like B4, but no one mentioning Lore was a slap in the face of all TNG-fans. And Data's sacrifice was wasted on a cookie-cutter villain who wanted to destroy Earth for some reason.
B4 sacrificing himself would've made a lot more sense.

Insurrection may have been boring, but in the end it was a better TNG-story than Nemesis:

Generations and Insurrection: Average TNG-episodes
First Contact: Good Voyager Borg episode with TNG cast.
Nemesis: Random B-movie with TNG cast.
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Old February 2 2014, 06:36 PM   #247
The Dead Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The problem with the "it's never too late" message is the delivery. It would have been a message if Shinzon had done something to redeem himself at the end...but he was portrayed as a mustache-twirler through and through.
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Old February 2 2014, 08:04 PM   #248
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Poor writing and directing.

You know how people accuse JJ Abrams of making the series into a cookie cutter action series? Well, Nemesis does the same thing, only without the focus on character development, more focus on shock and with 60 year olds.

The whole scene where the Romulan senate is gassed was staged in a really cheesy sensational way that started the film off on a sort of obnoxious tone. They could have done something interesting with a Picard clone but all they did was make him into a malicious depthless Nosferatu figure which didn't really evoke any kind of emotional response in Picard beyond revulsion at his evilness.

The writer for Nemesis is the same writer as for Skyfall and Gladiator. Scenes were staged in a way that works for James Bond but doesn't work for Jean Luc Picard.

Also Data's death seemed about as forced, contrived and meaningless as Trip's.

Hey, maybe Nemesis is a holodeck recreation of somebody from the 26th century, written by an action holoprogram writer!
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Old February 3 2014, 11:49 PM   #249
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I voted that it's good. I enjoy the interplay between Picard and Shinzon. The meat of the movie is not the action, for me. The meat of the movie is asking the question "What it means to be human?"

In the day of shootings and violence, cyber-bullying, and movies that perpetuate the idea that a man is in his circumstances, Nemesis dares to make the argument, "It's never too late to change. And a man can overcome his circumstances." I think it was brave to show Picard at his breaking point.

Where the movie fails, in my opinion, is the action sequences. They are waay too long. They feel like the movie just stops and we have a little fun, and then we go back to the "boring" stuff that actually makes it a movie. Like, for instance, the musical cue after Picard says that the Enterprise must stop the Scimitar. It's a march, it's glorious music. It's exciting. Picard wasn't like that. It was Sisko that would do that. He was the guy who toured the ship and talked to Guinan about history. The ramming of the two ships was a low point, especially the relatively b-rate dialogue and performance coming out of Patrick Stewart's mouth. I turn off the movie when Riker battles the Viceroy.
You know, again I am left feeling from having seen the deleted scenes that this version of Picard was in the movie... he was just left on the floor of the editing suite.

There's a small, but great, scene that was filmed but cut from the movie, where Picard goes down to sickbay and watches the crew getting prepared for casulaties in battle. And he laments to Beverly Crusher that the HMS Beagle went on it's voyages without a single musket aboard. It's a quiet, contemplative scene which completely nails exactly the tone you describe above, the Captain Picard of the TV series who used to debate the philosophical issues of his dilemmas, rather than simply taking the 'action hero' route.

See, the trouble with Nemesis is that all these "little" trims -- and some of the scenes are as small as only a 30 seconds -- add up to a big difference when each and every one of them is an intelligent character scene. The end result is a movie which is a Big Dumb Actioner. Nemesis wasn't conceived that way, it wasn't shot that way. But thanks to the decisions made in the editing room, it ended up that way.

Nemesis had it's heart taken out and left on the cutting room floor.
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Old February 4 2014, 12:38 AM   #250
Jeyl
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lance wrote: View Post
There's a small, but great, scene that was filmed but cut from the movie, where Picard goes down to sickbay and watches the crew getting prepared for casulaties in battle. And he laments to Beverly Crusher that the HMS Beagle went on it's voyages without a single musket aboard. It's a quiet, contemplative scene which completely nails exactly the tone you describe above, the Captain Picard of the TV series who used to debate the philosophical issues of his dilemmas, rather than simply taking the 'action hero' route.
This scene could have actually worked, but the blatant attempt at an Enterprise reference ruined it. Leave that stuff in the JJverse.
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Old February 4 2014, 02:44 AM   #251
The Dead Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

An Enterprise reference? That's more than a bit of a reach....
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Old February 4 2014, 03:33 AM   #252
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I know one of the ships on the map is the USS Archer, was there another Ent reference?
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Old February 5 2014, 11:02 PM   #253
mendelin
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

From this site

That's why Nemesis is unpopular


RIKER: Why did we abandon our posts on the bridge to come down here and fight these guys? Shouldn't we have a security detail?
WORF: Because the audience expects main characters to be involved in every scene.
RIKER: And why are we the first ones to arrive, even though the Remans came in through the bottom of the ship and we had to come from the bridge at the top of the ship?
WORF: How the hell should I know? Maybe most of the crew is on vacation. And why are the lights so fucking dark?
RIKER: Dim red light makes everything look more foreboding.
WORF: But didn't they say that the Remans see really well in the dark and can't stand bright lights? Why don't we crank up the lights to fullbright and blind 'em?
RIKER: Shut up and just try to look dramatic.
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Old February 6 2014, 09:55 AM   #254
Smellmet
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I can't deny that link picks apart the movie to perfection and is very funny, but it still doesn't stop me enjoying it
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Old February 6 2014, 02:41 PM   #255
mendelin
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Smellmet wrote: View Post
I can't deny that link picks apart the movie to perfection and is very funny, but it still doesn't stop me enjoying it
I also enjoy Nemesis. I appreciate it as a valuable part of NextGen history. But Nemesis wasn't a proper finale of Berman's Star Trek story. It was unfinished. It still cries for good sequel. For it's final part, which indeed should have become a good send-off for TNG-crew (like Undiscovered Country was for TOS-crew). But it's too late, of course.
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