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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 29 2014, 03:44 AM   #226
Hober Mallow
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I think that NEM and what all the Star Trek movies lack is a sympathetic villain.
I disagree. I think the problem with most Trek films is that they focus too much on the villains at the expense of the heroes. The heroes end up being even more two-dimensional than the villain.
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Old January 29 2014, 05:24 PM   #227
sonak
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I think that NEM and what all the Star Trek movies lack is a sympathetic villain. One badd ass guy/girl who the audience can secretly barrack for.
A good villain makes the hero seem better. By making Shinzon so pathetic it makes Picard look weak when he can't defeat him.
The same applies to the TOS and nuTrek movies as well. There was potential to have sympathy for Khan but it is ruined by all the senseless killing.

In one Star Trek movie I'd like there to be an anti-hero who the hero and the audience regrets their demise. I'm thinking female Romulan Commander or someone like Sran.

I think that Sybok(if we consider him a villain), Soran, and Ru'afo were all somewhat sympathetic in different ways. Sybok wasn't violent, he was on a religious quest. Soran had lost his home and family and wanted to return to someplace he was involuntarily taken from. Ru'afo was kicked off his home planet and forced to watch himself and his followers age and decay while the people who kicked them off stayed young and pretty.

YMMV
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Old January 30 2014, 12:38 AM   #228
Dukhat
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

sonak wrote: View Post
Ru'afo was kicked off his home planet and forced to watch himself and his followers age and decay while the people who kicked them off stayed young and pretty.
Ru'afo wasn't kicked off his planet, was he? I thought he and the other Son'a left on their own.
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Old January 30 2014, 02:57 AM   #229
cardinal biggles
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

They were exiled by the Ba'ku because they got bored with the whole Amish thing and (unsuccessfully) tried to stage a revolt.
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Old January 30 2014, 03:52 PM   #230
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

sonak wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I think that NEM and what all the Star Trek movies lack is a sympathetic villain. One badd ass guy/girl who the audience can secretly barrack for.
A good villain makes the hero seem better. By making Shinzon so pathetic it makes Picard look weak when he can't defeat him.
The same applies to the TOS and nuTrek movies as well. There was potential to have sympathy for Khan but it is ruined by all the senseless killing.

In one Star Trek movie I'd like there to be an anti-hero who the hero and the audience regrets their demise. I'm thinking female Romulan Commander or someone like Sran.

I think that Sybok(if we consider him a villain), Soran, and Ru'afo were all somewhat sympathetic in different ways. Sybok wasn't violent, he was on a religious quest. Soran had lost his home and family and wanted to return to someplace he was involuntarily taken from. Ru'afo was kicked off his home planet and forced to watch himself and his followers age and decay while the people who kicked them off stayed young and pretty.

YMMV
I want them to be sympathetic, not totally insane and be baddass. None of those guys are.
You know Soran lost his home, family etc. Then why wipe out an entire race to get really none of that back? I have no sympathy for him. Sybok I thought needed something - to be better looking or not so smug. Ru'afo was lame. Shinzon was creepy and lame. The Borg Queen and Khan were close to being bad ass but I had no sympathy for their cause.

I'd never even consider barracking for those guys.
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Old January 30 2014, 07:21 PM   #231
Stoo
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Jeyl wrote: View Post
First, you should never have to rely on pointless action scenes in order to have the audience invested in the movie. Second, I'm not saying that having an action scene at this point in the film is a bad idea. I just prefer an action scene that actually does something. If you look at Star Trek II, no action scene is wasted and everything that goes on is essential. You cannot skip Khan's ambush and expect the story to be coherent afterwards. The Enterprise needs to be crippled, and Khan needs to take Kirk more seriously. What comes out shooting the primitive natives of this planet in a Dune Buggy?
The problem with WoK's approach is a rather slow first half. I'd take Undiscovered Country as a better example of balancing pacing with action scenes that serve a purpose.
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Old January 30 2014, 07:41 PM   #232
Spider
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

None of the Star Trek movies were as good as the best of the individual series episodes from the TV shows. For either series. This movie was just one more disappointment.
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Old January 30 2014, 09:18 PM   #233
Jeyl
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Stoo wrote: View Post
The problem with WoK's approach is a rather slow first half. I'd take Undiscovered Country as a better example of balancing pacing with action scenes that serve a purpose.
Just because a movie doesn't have action scenes during the first half does not mean it's a "slow" first half. No scene in WoK feels pointless because everything fits naturally in getting the characters into the situations that are needed to tell the story. I'd argue that the Dune Buggy scene in Nemesis actually makes the film slower because it doesn't do anything but say "Hey, I'm a pointless action scene!". So what's more important? Non-action scenes that move the story forward, or action scenes that do nothing for the story at all?
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Old January 30 2014, 09:19 PM   #234
Jeyl
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Spider wrote: View Post
None of the Star Trek movies were as good as the best of the individual series episodes from the TV shows. For either series.
....why should they be?
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Old January 30 2014, 09:25 PM   #235
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

My dad's reaction to TWOK, back in the 1980s after I'd dragged him to see it in the theater, was that he was bored in the beginning, but he loved it once it started rolling.

Just to nip any notion that criticism of TWOK's pacing might be a generational thing, my dad would have been in his 40s at the time, and he's at best just a casual fan, who tends to like movies made in the 1940s (nothing wrong with that, by the way) and who saw enough Star Trek while I was growing up to keep him satisfied for a lifetime.

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Old January 30 2014, 09:57 PM   #236
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I've never had a problem with TWOK's pacing at all - it starts with a bang and it's not long before Khan's shoving Ceiti eels in Chekov's ear, before you know it it's the Reliant attack, and the bits inbetween with the Genesis video are great also.

The litmus test for me is my girlfriend - not massively into films and hates sci-fi. I've seen her fall asleep in the middle of Robocop, Star Wars, Die Hard, you name it. I introduced her to trek with TWOK (no way was I going to use TMP, despite my love for it) and you know what? She liked it. This was around 18 months ago, and she's since seen it once more, plus the rest of the TOS movies, seasons 3 & 4 of TNG and Generations plus the JJ films several times. First Contact tomorrow night...
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Old January 31 2014, 10:24 AM   #237
I am not Spock
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I voted average. It's not the worst film ever made, not even the worst Trek film ever made. But it's nothing special. It's just a tired rehash of TWOK. I enjoyed it in the theatre, but the more I rewatched it, I have problems with it. It is typical late-period Berman Trek. Tired, dated, old hat. The series really needed a reboot by this point. ENT seasons three and four tried; but it was too little, too late.

To call Nemesis the Batman and Robin, or Die Another Day (to the Nolan trilogy and Casino Royale , to JJs films) of Star Trek would be a bit harsh, but it's not far off that level
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Old January 31 2014, 10:47 AM   #238
Stoo
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Jeyl wrote: View Post

Just because a movie doesn't have action scenes during the first half does not mean it's a "slow" first half. No scene in WoK feels pointless because everything fits naturally in getting the characters into the situations that are needed to tell the story. I'd argue that the Dune Buggy scene in Nemesis actually makes the film slower because it doesn't do anything but say "Hey, I'm a pointless action scene!". So what's more important? Non-action scenes that move the story forward, or action scenes that do nothing for the story at all?
Oh I'm not a fan of the dune buggies either. The scene is totally inconsequential, on a world we don't care about. I tend to skip it when rewatching.

I just think WoK takes a while to get up and running (although the payoff is great when we get there, and it's definitely a superior film to Nemesis). So i was bringing up an example I thought overall better addresses the need to keep some momentum to the plot, without pointless digressions.
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Old January 31 2014, 08:15 PM   #239
The Overlord
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

sonak wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I think that NEM and what all the Star Trek movies lack is a sympathetic villain. One badd ass guy/girl who the audience can secretly barrack for.
A good villain makes the hero seem better. By making Shinzon so pathetic it makes Picard look weak when he can't defeat him.
The same applies to the TOS and nuTrek movies as well. There was potential to have sympathy for Khan but it is ruined by all the senseless killing.

In one Star Trek movie I'd like there to be an anti-hero who the hero and the audience regrets their demise. I'm thinking female Romulan Commander or someone like Sran.

I think that Sybok(if we consider him a villain), Soran, and Ru'afo were all somewhat sympathetic in different ways. Sybok wasn't violent, he was on a religious quest. Soran had lost his home and family and wanted to return to someplace he was involuntarily taken from. Ru'afo was kicked off his home planet and forced to watch himself and his followers age and decay while the people who kicked them off stayed young and pretty.

YMMV
Frankly Ru'afo did not get enough time or character development to be sympathetic, just a back story that was mentioned off hand. He was just an annoying, whiny jerk through out the film.
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Old February 1 2014, 01:35 AM   #240
Ro_Laren
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I never understood why people hated Nemesis. While there are things that I would change here and there, the only things that I hated are 1) Data died and 2) they cut out the Wesley scenes (never was a Wesley hater, lol).
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