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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 17 2014, 11:55 PM   #166
Hober Mallow
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Data's death on the Scimitar saw the character arc come to a nice, poignant end.
I had absolutely no emotional reaction whatsoever to Data's death. The entire movie, including the death of Data, fell utterly flat to me. I had a greater reaction to Sarek's death in "Unification" than I did to Data's death in "Nemesis."
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Old January 18 2014, 12:15 AM   #167
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

All the other stuff aside, I'm not a fan of Tom Hardy in this movie. I just didn't believe that he was Picard's clone.

(I didn't like his performance in Dark Knight Rises either. It seemed like he was riffing on a bad Patrick Stewart impression.)

As for Data's arc, it just wasn't done well. I guess that's what happens when you let the actors write the script.

That said, it's a Star Trek movie. It's better than nothing.
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Old January 18 2014, 03:31 AM   #168
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
A Picard evil clone would have worked better if he actually commandeered the Enterprise, nobody initially suspected, and used the ship to plot the UFP's destruction. The finale could have been good real Picard vs. evil clone Picard in Engineering, and before clone Picard can destroy the warp core Data sacrifices himself. this would have no Tom Hardy, and Sir Patrick playing a double role. lol..
An even more interesting variation of that would be if the Romulan plan had been carried out...the Picard who'd commanded the Enterprise all those years was a sleeper-agent clone. The guy who'd spent the last 20ish years with the Remans was the original Picard, who'd become a rat bastard / lunatic. The clone Picard would overcome his conditioning and prove to be the true hero that everyone had always thought he was.

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
I had absolutely no emotional reaction whatsoever to Data's death. The entire movie, including the death of Data, fell utterly flat to me.
Hear, hear.

urbandefault wrote: View Post
(I didn't like his performance in Dark Knight Rises either. It seemed like he was riffing on a bad Patrick Stewart impression.)
I always thought it sounded like a bad Connery impression....
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Old January 18 2014, 06:18 AM   #169
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

BillJ wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post

If ALL of Data's personality and ALL of his memories were in B4, then in what way is B4 not really Data?

What is an "individual" if not their personality and memories?
I don't think that B4 had the processing power to "become" Data. If you take all my memories and copy them into someone with a brain disorder, would it still be "me"?
There's about a million good jokes here, but I can't choose just one. You're making this too easy.
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Old January 18 2014, 08:11 AM   #170
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I've long disliked what the comicbook and novel writers subsequent to NEMESIS have done with B-4. To me, it seems uncharitable somehow for them to simply suggest Data "overtook" B-4 and basically came back to life by killing B-4 and asserting himself through B-4's body.

In my view, it would have been much better for his data transfer to help kick in B-4's own ability to grow and develop, but to still keep B-4 as very much his own character, as distinct from Data as Data is from Lore. Use it as a way to keep the Soong android stuff alive in the show, but reboot the concept by letting B-4 become something 'other than' Data. It'd give Spiner something different to play as well.

Like the other Soong androids, Data's memories can live on, but I'd be far more interested in seeing B-4 develop and grow for himself.
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Old January 18 2014, 09:08 PM   #171
sonak
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lance wrote: View Post
I've long disliked what the comicbook and novel writers subsequent to NEMESIS have done with B-4. To me, it seems uncharitable somehow for them to simply suggest Data "overtook" B-4 and basically came back to life by killing B-4 and asserting himself through B-4's body.

In my view, it would have been much better for his data transfer to help kick in B-4's own ability to grow and develop, but to still keep B-4 as very much his own character, as distinct from Data as Data is from Lore. Use it as a way to keep the Soong android stuff alive in the show, but reboot the concept by letting B-4 become something 'other than' Data. It'd give Spiner something different to play as well.

Like the other Soong androids, Data's memories can live on, but I'd be far more interested in seeing B-4 develop and grow for himself.

maybe a character with both personalities co-existing alongside each other in one body, sort of like joined Trill?
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Old January 19 2014, 01:23 AM   #172
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

It would have been fun to open Nemesis with Tom Hardy as young Picard getting his heart stabbed. And then a nice transition from his face to Stewarts face.

And make the artificial heart thing one of the mentioned differences between Shinzon and Picard.
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Old January 21 2014, 12:48 AM   #173
Paul Weaver
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I agree with most of your points

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
There are many small things wrong with the film that grate on me (such as Worf back in uniform for no reason
Both Worf and Wesley's uniforms were explained in the books (as was Lwaxana being missing)

Worf resigns as Ambasador (Alexander takes over) and rejoins Starfleet. I think partly thanks to Worf having to betray Martok in the books, partly thanks to missing the action.

Deanna's apparent inability to press buttons herself
She managed to crash the ship. That's her calling card

I wish this speech from the books had been in the film

"This may be the last time we're all together. We've been through a lot. Q, Borg invasions. The Romulans coming out of their shell. A Klingon Civil War, the return of Kahless. The Phoenix flight. First contact with the Vulcans. And a terrible, terrible war. We've seen friends die, we've seen legends die. We've let friends go and seen new friends arrive. We've welcomed children into the world and we've let them go. And now we're all together one last time. A month from now, Worf, Deanna and I will be on the Titan, Beverly will be frightening interns at Starfleet Medical. Wes will be traveling again. We'll be moving on. But for fifteen years on two starships, we got to make history. And I just want to tell you all here and now that it has been the pleasure of my life to make that history with all of you. Now we get to make one last bit of history together."
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Old January 21 2014, 03:03 AM   #174
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
I agree with most of your points

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
There are many small things wrong with the film that grate on me (such as Worf back in uniform for no reason
Both Worf and Wesley's uniforms were explained in the books (as was Lwaxana being missing)
1. The books were published in 2004, in part as an effort to bridge the four-year gap between INS and NEM, and explain some of the gaping continuity errors; the books would have been unavailable to audience members puzzling over these things in December 2002.

2. Most people don't read the books, nor should they have to go out and spend money on a miniseries of tie-in novels in order for said movie to make sense. It should do so on its own, and if it can't, then perhaps it has earned its shitty reputation after all.
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Old January 22 2014, 10:19 AM   #175
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
Both Worf and Wesley's uniforms were explained in the books (as was Lwaxana being missing)
1. The books were published in 2004, in part as an effort to bridge the four-year gap between INS and NEM, and explain some of the gaping continuity errors; the books would have been unavailable to audience members puzzling over these things in December 2002.

2. Most people don't read the books, nor should they have to go out and spend money on a miniseries of tie-in novels in order for said movie to make sense. It should do so on its own, and if it can't, then perhaps it has earned its shitty reputation after all.
I've fallen out of love with Trek Lit, so had no interest in reading the books that bridged the gap (do they also explain why Riker wasn't promoted earlier, or why it took him and Troi four years to eventually get married, or why the crew seemed surprised about being naked at a Betazoid wedding--they were told about it in "Haven"?).

So in my head Worf is still the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire, he opted for full uniform in honour of his friends wedding and then took a few days leave from his post to catch up with his former comrades and got caught up in the 'adventure', after the film ended he returned to Qo'noS.
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Old January 22 2014, 04:16 PM   #176
Paul Weaver
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
I've fallen out of love with Trek Lit, so had no interest in reading the books that bridged the gap (do they also explain why Riker wasn't promoted earlier
I think so, and why he took the Titan when he said in Generations he wanted the big E.

or why it took him and Troi four years to eventually get married
There was an event that spurred the marriage to happen, yes.

Four years isn't that long though. However 15 years of living and working together is a bit longer

It also explains Daniels (the Enterprise security chief) and Perim (the conn officer from Insurrection) went after Insurrection, and where the new security chief was. As a senior crew member you'd expect them to have been on the ship.

or why the crew seemed surprised about being naked at a Betazoid wedding--they were told about it in "Haven"?).
I don't recall the specifics, but looking at just the film, it's entirely possible the crew forgot a passing reference from 15 years earlier, especially as they may well have wiped much of season 1 and season 2 from their minds

So in my head Worf is still the Federation Ambassador to the Klingon Empire, he opted for full uniform in honour of his friends wedding and then took a few days leave from his post to catch up with his former comrades and got caught up in the 'adventure', after the film ended he returned to Qo'noS.
It helps that the Madden scene was deleted, in that Worf was still on the bridge overseeing repairs, and having some uppity cadet out-smarting him in typical "lets ridicule Worf" fashion. Likewise the Wesley deleted scene which had him definitely part of starfleet.
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Old January 22 2014, 05:18 PM   #177
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

PICARD: Mr. Worf? This is slightly...awkward, but several members of the crew have complained about the fact that you're continuing to wear that uniform when you're not actually in Starfleet anymore. I mean, ceremony is all very well and good, but...do be a good chap.
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Old January 23 2014, 03:56 AM   #178
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

WORF: It is a good day for callbacks!
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Old January 23 2014, 04:41 AM   #179
Hober Mallow
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Paul Weaver wrote: View Post
I wish this speech from the books had been in the film

"This may be the last time we're all together. We've been through a lot. Q, Borg invasions. The Romulans coming out of their shell. A Klingon Civil War, the return of Kahless. The Phoenix flight. First contact with the Vulcans. And a terrible, terrible war. We've seen friends die, we've seen legends die. We've let friends go and seen new friends arrive. We've welcomed children into the world and we've let them go. And now we're all together one last time. A month from now, Worf, Deanna and I will be on the Titan, Beverly will be frightening interns at Starfleet Medical. Wes will be traveling again. We'll be moving on. But for fifteen years on two starships, we got to make history. And I just want to tell you all here and now that it has been the pleasure of my life to make that history with all of you. Now we get to make one last bit of history together."
Meh... I'm glad that wasn't in the film.
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Old January 23 2014, 12:39 PM   #180
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Yeah, the speech is weird for some reason. Too fan-serving? Like he watched a re-run of his own show.
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