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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old January 3 2014, 12:30 PM   #31
Deranged Nasat
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

BobtheGunslinge wrote: View Post
NotLKH wrote: View Post
I only read the last two or three novels, and I never had a low opinion of Peter Davids writing.

However, it was my understanding that the whole of the series was of a "comic book" quality, in terms of concept at the very least.

Exactly when did that "bird" hatch from a planetary body anyways?
That description is spot on. The whole thing felt like a comic book after the first book or two--and I mean a 90's comic book, where everyone was sexy, emotionally stunted and the best at what they do, bub.

I think the Great Bird hatching was the shark jumping moment, but I read a few books after that, unfortunately.

Now, to try Vanguard and SCE. How did they turn out?
SCE is the closest we've come to having a book-only TV series, if that makes sense. Episodic adventures of varying quality with characters coming in and out of focus; a lot of different writers but ongoing character arcs.

Vanguard is impressive throughout, and certainly not like your description of New Frontier.
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Old January 3 2014, 02:11 PM   #32
RoJoHen
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
Yeah, I have to go with the time-skip as well, but the beginning of the end, at least IMHO, was when the series stopped being a series about a ship and a crew. The splitting up the family is what killed it for me.
That's pretty much my opinion as well.

It makes sense for character to evolve and change, and a result of that would inevitably be having them leave the ship. Unfortunately, I felt that the stories started to get spread too thin with too many storylines happening in too many different places. I didn't necessarily mind the introduction of a second ship, but the time jump when everybody was suddenly spread all over the Quadrant just made it hard to care anymore.

Through the telling of the stories, crews of the Star Trek ships become families. When you split the family up, it ruins the dynamic of the story you're telling.
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Old January 3 2014, 05:42 PM   #33
TheUsualSuspect
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

BobtheGunslinge wrote: View Post
Now, to try Vanguard and SCE. How did they turn out?
I've not read SCE, but I thought Vanguard was great.

It's got a great cast of interesting characters, almost entirely novel-only characters. If you like TOS, it provides a really interesting picture of what was going on in places where Kirk and the Enterprise were not -- except for a couple of "guest appearances." I enjoyed the way Vanguard storylines filled in some of the blanks behind the TOS episodes and movies, while telling their own story at the same time.
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Old January 3 2014, 08:30 PM   #34
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

SCE is pretty poor overall. There's some good stuff in there as well, but it's not that common !

I started reading them a couple of years ago between other things. I'm only about half way through, but have pretty much lost interest.
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Old January 4 2014, 12:50 AM   #35
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

I do find it kind of ironic that a lot of people seem to agree that NF started going downhill when they split up the characters, but Kirsten Beyer did the the same thing in Voyager and everybody loves them. I'm even guilty of this myself. I guess she just must have managed to make it work where Peter David couldn't.
As for SCE and Vanguard, I've really enjoyed them both.
Vanguard is has a fascinating group of diverse characters in an interesting new area of space, with a great overarching story.
The SCE books are a lot of fun. They're most smaller more episodic stories, but the characters are really good. I do agree with Nasat that it does feel the most like another TV series of any of the book series.
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Old January 4 2014, 01:46 AM   #36
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

ATimson wrote: View Post
Not seeing the characters appreciably change over a seven-year span like on TNG and Voyager was "great"? Really?
Well, excuuuuuuse me for having a different opinion than you. The characters changed over the years, just not career-wise. If the writers weren't actually wanting Riker to transfer off the ship, they shouldn't have written in any center seat offers.

Look, I get that you have a different opinion than me, but I really don't see why you(or anyone, really) feel you can't squelch the need to be rude about it.
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Old January 4 2014, 01:48 AM   #37
vegaslover62
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

JD wrote: View Post
I do find it kind of ironic that a lot of people seem to agree that NF started going downhill when they split up the characters, but Kirsten Beyer did the the same thing in Voyager and everybody loves them.
The difference between NF and Voyager is that everybody got back together and is essentially doing the same job as before.
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Old January 4 2014, 02:01 AM   #38
Therin of Andor
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

JD wrote: View Post
I do find it kind of ironic that a lot of people seem to agree that NF started going downhill when they split up the characters...
Coinciding with the splitting up of the "family" into two ships - and then two ships and a starbase - was the series going to just one book per year. Perhaps when PAD mooted the split, he was assuming there'd be several NF adventures each year?

As for the "like a comic book", PAD's unique brand of comedy, wacky puns, witty banter and unexpected tragedy was what I loved most about his books. I'd enjoyed it in his work on the TOS comics for DC, and projects such as "Dreadstar", and his "Apropos of Nothing" novels. It won't be to everyone's tastes.
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Old January 4 2014, 02:14 AM   #39
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

vegaslover62 wrote: View Post
The difference between NF and Voyager is that everybody got back together and is essentially doing the same job as before.
Not unlike the TOS cast.

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Old January 4 2014, 06:03 PM   #40
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

Regardless of when or if NF went off the rails, it still needs to be folded into mainstream Treklit and the characters/ships USED.

Any continuity problems can fairly easily be retconned...
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Old January 4 2014, 10:24 PM   #41
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

I think New Frontier starting losing me after the trilogy Requiem, Renaissance, and Restoration. Up to that point I was tearing through the books, but this trilogy was hard to get through. I don't think I even finished it. Maybe I just skipped, but it just wasn't the same for me. I didn't care for the new characters or the changes.
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Old January 5 2014, 12:40 AM   #42
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

I loved the characters, but disliked the so-called New Frontier universe, It was more fantasy than I prefer. Don't get me wrong, I still read all the books, but the first book had a planet turning into a bird. [Jumped]shark[/jumped]

Also too many generic antagonists, no one really stood out to me apart from those genocidal religious nutcases (I don't remember the name, I haven't read them for years).

Good: Calhoun, Shelby, Soleta, Burgoyne, 'old' Kebron, Mueller and the Xenexian race.

Bad: Any Thallonian, Lefler, Selar (shudder), Xy, Xyon and McHenry (open your bloody eyes you irritating godling!). Making the Excalibur-A, Exeter and Trident all Galaxy class (boring!), Making Shelby Admiral and commanding a Starbase. The rest wasn't memorable enough to remember.
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Old January 5 2014, 07:35 AM   #43
iarann
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

For me, I really wanted to like the books because the concept sounded so awesome, but after reading the first four books (well, like mini-books really, I think it was a serial novel or something) it just seemed like standard PAD.

Super referential to the point of distraction (constant references to the various shows as though PAD is winking at us on every other page saying "Yep, it's Star Trek!", with practically every character somehow connected to TOS or something, one guy even descended from Apollo in Who Mourns for Adonais), lots of hokey joke characters mixed in with really 90s like "X-treme" stuff (see Calhoun's backstory and character, complete with facial scar and purple eyes), and his description of Shelby didn't much resemble what I saw on television other than the blonde hair.

I know he has a lot of fans, but I personally couldn't enjoy the work. I wonder if the books didn't so much jump the shark as the people reading them have gotten older and developed higher expecations. With the quality of Trek books having gotten so much better what once seemed top of the line became kind of average. I was able to push through the first four books because the overall plot was interesting even if I disliked the execution, but now having read things like Vanguard I don't know if I would be able to make it through something like that again.
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Old January 5 2014, 08:03 AM   #44
Therin of Andor
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

iarann wrote: View Post
practically every character somehow connected to TOS or something, one guy even descended from Apollo in Who Mourns for Adonais)
That's "practically every character"?

his description of Shelby didn't much resemble what I saw on television other than the blonde hair.
Such as?

I wonder if the books didn't so much jump the shark as the people reading them have gotten older and developed higher expecations.
Peter David continues to have a huge fanbase.
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Old January 5 2014, 08:47 AM   #45
iarann
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Re: When did New Frontier "Jump the Shark"?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

That's "practically every character"?
It was an example. I know that some of it was editorially mandated, but PAD has a habit of inserting that kind of thing into everything he writes. An example would be his novelizations of the Spider-man movies, where he was constantly using in-jokes and references to other Marvel universe stuff.

If you want another example from New Frontier, you can refer to Lefler's mother who is "played" by Majel Barrett and is hinted to be Number One from the Cage, mistaken by Scotty to be Christine Chapel, noted to sound like the standard Starfleet computer, and there was probably a reference to Lwaxana Troi I'm just not aware of. Having the character "played" by Majel Barrett made sense, he had become good friends with her and she did have multiple roles in the series, but going to the effort to link the character to all the previous portrayals is typical PAD stuff that you see when he writes any tie-in fiction.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Such as?
Such has his description of her in the vision Calhoun has at the beginning of the first book.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Peter David continues to have a huge fanbase.
Of course he does, that's why I said "I know he has a lot of fans". My statement was just an observation that a lot of people who really love his books read many of them when they were kids/teenagers, and looking through the lens of nostalgia will often affect our perception of the quality of things. I point this out because a lot of the reasons I see people on here talking about it jumping the shark, such as how it got corny, were present at the very beginning and perhaps people just didn't notice because they were 20 years younger when they read those books. and didn't quite have the same perspective of expectations of Star Trek novels.

You love the books, and that's great, I just personally am not a fan of PAD's writing anymore, and I was just making observations based on what others had said. Please don't take that to mean I think you shouldn't enjoy them or read them or recommend them to others, this is just my opinion and not meant to be an attack on yours.
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