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Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

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Old December 31 2013, 05:18 AM   #16
Warped9
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

uniderth wrote: View Post
Perhaps there were some important founding members of the Federation that would not join unless there were females were restricted from being Captains. Then eventually these planet's cultures changed and the restriction on female command officers was lifted sometime in the 2270s.
This is reaching unnecessarily. It's also like the U.S. government ordering businesses to remove woman from positions of authority just to appease a backward country that suppresses woman's rights just so they can do business in said country.

The lack of evidence is not evidence. There are many things in the Trek universe we never actually see or even hear referenced yet we know those things must be there. We never see a toilet and related facilities aboard the Enterprise and yet we know they must be there. We never see other Starfleet ship designs and yet we know they must be there. And those are two things with less evidence of existence than the likelihood of female starship Captains.

Number One from "The Menagerie" is the strongest evidence that woman can indeed command in the era of TOS. Throughout most of the story she is actually in command while Pike is absent. And she is clearly established as the ship's First Officer. There is no supportive reasoning whatsoever that would allow a woman to be a ship's second-in-command, with potential to have to actually take over should the Captain be lost or killed, and yet not allow her to actually attain the rank and position of starship command and likely beyond.

That the series never actually showed it after "The Menagerie" is not sufficient evidence to argue that women were actually barred from command. Nothing that follows in the series contradicts what is established with Number One and her position. What is said by an unstable character in the final episode, "Turnabout Intruder," all comes down to how one chooses to interpret it. This is a bitter and irrational individual still seething because her former lover rejected her in favour of his Starfleet career and ambition to become a starship commander. Her behaviour throughout the episodes clearly illustrates she did not possess the temperament, training and ability to command. In today's terms Lester has a victim mentality---everything is someone else's fault and through no failing of hers.

She's a reject on two counts:
- Kirk rejected her because he felt a committed relationship could likely hinder him attaining his career goals. Hence his "world of starship Captains" had no room for women, but more specifically no room for Janice Lester. And she blames him for rejecting her.
- Assuming she tried for a command path Lester's own shortcomings made her obviously lacking in the required qualities. If we assume that female commanders are fewer than males then we can see how Lester's victim mentality could see her professional rejection as a form of "old boys'" chauvinism excluding women. She can't see the failings in herself so she can only see it as someone else's fault.
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Old December 31 2013, 05:21 AM   #17
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
Number One from "The Menagerie" is the strongest evidence that woman can indeed command in the era of TOS.
Yes, but Number One was "different, of course."

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Old December 31 2013, 05:25 AM   #18
Warped9
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
Number One from "The Menagerie" is the strongest evidence that woman can indeed command in the era of TOS.
Yes, but Number One was "different, of course."

Yes, she was. She behaved like a professional officer while Colt was all tongue-tied because of her attraction to Pike. And the other women we saw on the bridge in "The Cage" also behaved professionally.
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Old January 4 2014, 02:34 AM   #19
Nerys Myk
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Ah, the real reason Pike wanted to leave the service! Too many women on the bridge!

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Old January 4 2014, 04:03 AM   #20
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
The lack of evidence is not evidence.
But the lack of evidence is the lack of proof. While it true that if something happen to Pike (and something did) Number One would take over in his absence, should Starfleet have a policy of not assigning females to command starships, Number One would have been replaced as soon as possible. Her command of the ship would have been temporary.

If present day several officers were removed from the chain of command (death or injury) and a female senior officer found herself in command of a aircraft carrier, she would likely remain in command only as long as it took to replace her.

While it possible for a female officer to be given command of a combatant in the US Navy, it's very rare.

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Old January 4 2014, 04:08 AM   #21
Warped9
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
The lack of evidence is not evidence.
But the lack of evidence is the lack of proof. While it true that if something happen to Pike (and something did) Number One would take over in his absence, should Starfleet have a policy of not assigning females to command starships, Number One would have been replaced as soon as possible. Her command of the ship would have been temporary.

If present day several officers were removed from the chain of command (death or injury) and a female senior officer found herself in command of a aircraft carrier, she would likely remain in command only as long as it took to replace her.

While it possible for a female officer to be given command of a combatant in the US Navy, it's very rare.

But we're not dealing with a contemporary naval organization. We're dealing with a fictional universe. And there's nothing in TOS that flat out states women cannot command while on the other side there's Number One whose very existentence argues that they can.
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Old January 4 2014, 04:30 AM   #22
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
We're dealing with a fictional universe. And there's nothing in TOS that flat out states women cannot command while on the other side there's Number One whose very existentence argues that they can.
Number One argues that female can rise to the position of First Officer.

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
uniderth wrote: View Post
Perhaps there were some important founding members of the Federation that would not join unless there were females were restricted from being Captains. Then eventually these planet's cultures changed and the restriction on female command officers was lifted sometime in the 2270s.
I prefer to believe that the Federation was not founded with deliberate sexism included as an inherent part of its founding.
Cultures and societies do change over time, that women will have the same societal position in the 23rd century as they do today is no more likely or unlikely than that women will hold the position they did in the 1960's.

Women's ability to hold command of a starship might have been a given in the beginning of the 23rd century, ended with a change in culture, and resumed later. The prohibition could have apply solely to Human women as a consequence of a change in Human culture, and not have impacted females of other species.

We did see a single Human female in command of a ship in TVH, but other than that the movies showed male Starfleet commanding officers.

Even in TNG-DS9-VOY the majority of CO's were male, females were the exception.

I can't remember any Vulcan female CO's.

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Old January 4 2014, 05:32 AM   #23
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

I simply can't take that negative view of the TOS universe particularly with nothing of substance to support it.
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Old January 4 2014, 07:19 PM   #24
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
I simply can't take that negative view of the TOS universe particularly with nothing of substance to support it.
Only the substance of what was shown on screen.


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Old January 4 2014, 07:51 PM   #25
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
If present day several officers were removed from the chain of command (death or injury) and a female senior officer found herself in command of a aircraft carrier, she would likely remain in command only as long as it took to replace her.
No, that is absolutely not correct. An officer who is in the line of command of a US Navy vessel is authorized and empowered in all respects to succeed to that command should the situation arise, in order of seniority. If the officer were not qualified, he/she would not be in the line of command.

While it possible for a female officer to be given command of a combatant in the US Navy, it's very rare.
Female officers in the US Navy command naval combatant vessels in a similar proportion to the number of women who are designated as unrestricted line officers (~7-8%). Female URL officers do not form their own category and compete for promotion with men of the same grade, and there is no restriction on the commands they can hold, with submarine service now also open to women. And there is no upper limit, either, as we have recently seen the nomination of the first woman four-star admiral.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Number One argues that female can rise to the position of First Officer.
And captain, because she does become the captain in Pike's absence. As Kirk pointed out in "The Tholian Web," when Spock succeeds to command, "he is the captain." If Number One's sex disqualified her, Spock or some other male officer would have taken command. It makes no sense that Number One would be put in the position of second in command if she could never succeed to that command.
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Old January 4 2014, 08:03 PM   #26
Warped9
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
I simply can't take that negative view of the TOS universe particularly with nothing of substance to support it.
Only the substance of what was shown on screen.


Which is nothing.
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Old January 5 2014, 05:29 AM   #27
T'Girl
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
No, that is absolutely not correct. An officer who is in the line of command of a US Navy vessel is authorized and empowered in all respects to succeed to that command should the situation arise, in order of seniority. If the officer were not qualified, he/she would not be in the line of command.
I believe you're wrong, once it became known that the original commanding officer was "gone," a new commanding officer would be sent/flown to the carrier, the officer who assumed command would not simply be left in that position. The female officer I used in my example wouldn't remain in command beyond temporarily.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Warped9 wrote: View Post
I simply can't take that negative view of the TOS universe particularly with nothing of substance to support it.
Only the substance of what was shown on screen.
Which is nothing.
Exactly, there are no examples in TOS of anyone who isn't male being assign to captain a starship. We neither see nor hear of a female captains.

Yes, prior to beaming down to "rescue the survivors" Pike did give Number One the conn, just as we've seen Kirk do with Sulu. But if something happen to Kirk that doesn't automatically mean Sulu becomes the ship's next captain.

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Old January 5 2014, 05:51 AM   #28
Warped9
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
No, that is absolutely not correct. An officer who is in the line of command of a US Navy vessel is authorized and empowered in all respects to succeed to that command should the situation arise, in order of seniority. If the officer were not qualified, he/she would not be in the line of command.
I believe you're wrong, once it became known that the original commanding officer was "gone," a new commanding officer would be sent/flown to the carrier, the officer who assumed command would not simply be left in that position. The female officer I used in my example wouldn't remain in command beyond temporarily.

Warped9 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Only the substance of what was shown on screen.
Which is nothing.
Exactly, there are no examples in TOS of anyone who isn't male being assign to captain a starship. We neither see nor hear of a female captains.

Yes, prior to beaming down to "rescue the survivors" Pike did give Number One the conn, just as we've seen Kirk do with Sulu. But if something happen to Kirk that doesn't automatically mean Sulu becomes the ship's next captain.

From the get-go Roddenberry established Number One as the ship's First officer. It's right in his series concept breakdown when he outlines the characters.

And by "nothing" I mean there is nothing throughout TOS that contradicts what Roddenberry established in "The Cage."
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Old January 5 2014, 06:27 AM   #29
J.T.B.
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
I believe you're wrong, once it became known that the original commanding officer was "gone," a new commanding officer would be sent/flown to the carrier, the officer who assumed command would not simply be left in that position. The female officer I used in my example wouldn't remain in command beyond temporarily.
Maybe, but that would have nothing to do with the officer being a woman.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Exactly, there are no examples in TOS of anyone who isn't male being assign to captain a starship. We neither see nor hear of a female captains.

Yes, prior to beaming down to "rescue the survivors" Pike did give Number One the conn, just as we've seen Kirk do with Sulu. But if something happen to Kirk that doesn't automatically mean Sulu becomes the ship's next captain.
The conn is the authority to give helm orders. What Number One was doing was different: she was commanding the entire ship, giving orders to all departments. She was the captain in the same respect as Spock was in "The Tholian Web."
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Old January 5 2014, 06:29 AM   #30
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Re: Should they have had a female Commodore in TOS?

Warped9 wrote: View Post
And by "nothing" I mean there is nothing throughout TOS that contradicts what Roddenberry established in "The Cage."
Except that we never saw any woman in TOS over the rank of Commander.
There is also what Lester said and Kirk's response to it that may contradict it.
If Lester had said Starfleet doesn't allow anyone but white men to be the Captain of a Starship I believe we had some evidence to prove that wrong. I don't believe we have any evidence to prove Lester wrong except showing that a woman was allowed to be in temporary command of a ship once.
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