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Old January 14 2014, 08:37 PM   #136
Emh
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Emh wrote: View Post
Dimesdan wrote: View Post
Roll on the BluRay of the three series next week and time for a massive rewatch of all nine episodes and try and get a screen capture of all of Sherlock's pressure points.
Starkers wrote: View Post
Yes looking forward to be able to see all of CAM's on screen info (I could have just paused/rewound the telly of course but I didn't want to slow the momentum!)
Despite not wanting to slow down the momentum, I had to pause for each of them because I wanted to see all of the information right there and then.

Interestingly, while it's made to look like CAM is scrolling through a long list of pressure points for Sherlock, there are actually only half a dozen or so. From memory (because I'm at work and can't check right now): Irene Adler, John Watson, opium, Redbeard. I know there were at least a couple of more, but that was it. The same list was just repeated ad naseum.
The other two were Hounds of the Baskerville and Jim Moriarty.
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Old January 14 2014, 11:26 PM   #137
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

To me, the season finale was entertaining while I was watching it, but the more I think about it now that it's come and gone, the more my reaction is "wow, fuck this show".

Holmes shooting CAM in the face: That'd have been an OK way to end it if this was the final series. A rather massive deviation from canon (Holmes taking no steps to ensure CAM's murderer gets caught is pretty different from him doing the killing himself), but whatever: the show could have concluded with Sherlock finally snapping, proving himself to indeed not only be a sociopath but a *dangerous* one that is a menace to society, and going to prison.

As this is not going to happen, though, the writers are in a bit of a bind now: there's no way they can go on from here that is not, in one way or another, despicable. Ep 1 of the next series will be about Sherlock being brought back to London to face off with (faux?) Moriarty: OK, fine, extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, blah blah blah. What then? He's still a murderer. He shot an unarmed man in the head, right in front of the police. It was not in self-defence, he was not under duress. He was just really pissed.

After the immediate threat has passed, what will happen then? Will the show continue in prison (or with Sherlock facing his de-facto death sentence undercover in Eastern Europe), or will he be pardoned in light of the services he'll render the crown in the coming episode? How disgustingly Nietzschean. "Oh, never mind that thing where you shot a guy in the head, you've been a good boy since, and he was a real prick anyway. Let bygones be bygones. And vigilante justice is actually pretty cool, saves the police work."

Mary shooting Sherlock, and her being forgiven for it, was equally harebrained. "Oh, I know you shot my best friend in the chest, but you only did so because you love me!" - give me a fucking break. John's bold declarations that he does not care about her past: if her past has molded her into a person that's willing to shoot an (at this point) innocent person in the chest (fuck that whole "non-lethally" bullshit) to avoid facing the consequences of her (actual) crimes, you'd better fucking care, you complete and utter moron.

Moffat did this on DW already, and he's doing it here too: have characters do things that seem irredeemable, and then bend over backwards trying to show how the character in question is, actually, redeemable. And fail. To hell with that. If you don't want your characters to be irredeemable, stop having them shoot people.

So, for me the show crossed a line with this last episode - it's obviously in a place (that DW has been at for some time) where Moffat cares more about shocking the audience than he cares about telling a coherent story.

Hence: Wow, fuck this show.
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Old January 15 2014, 03:45 AM   #138
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Mind blown, Chilli. I did feel unsatisfied with the episode but couldn't quite point my finger on what exactly was bothering me. You managed to mention all the points that subconsciously bugged me and some I hadn't considered, like the legal ramnifications.
To me, the rule of law has been subverted in the real world enough so that I don't feel it necessarily has to apply to fictional stories. Hence, I can buy that Sherlock wouldn't need to go to prison or even on trial due to his connections to the UK government/elites and Magnusson's sway over those same elites being broken. Hell, you could probably paint Magnusson as a sort of terrorist threat if you really wanted.

But of course, the ethical issues remain. What his wife has done in the past should make a difference to Watson although I can also understand his desire to not know. Sherlock surviving Mary shooting him was portrayed as a big deal with the overly long mind palace scene so the audience believes it is a very narrow thing and that Sherlock probably would have died if he hadn't applied his abilities. Yet, later, we are told that Mary aimed so that Sherlock would only be hurt not killed. So, either the mind palace scene is a bit pointless or Mary was extremely reckless, banking on Sherlock being able to calculate how to fall and not to go into shock. (That's if you buy the premise one could aim so precisely and predictably but it's fiction so let's go with that.)
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Old January 15 2014, 04:36 AM   #139
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

So, I was the only one who had an "Oh Shit" moment thinking that Sherlock's new "chemist" "protege" might be someone that Magnusson had in a bind, and that it was going to be revealed during Magnusson's soliloquizing that everyone they left at the house was now dead and it had been made to look like Sherlock did it?
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Old January 15 2014, 06:02 AM   #140
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Shawnster wrote: View Post
3chordboy wrote: View Post
I can't believe they killed Mary off at the wedding. that's so cold...poor John
You are an evil man.
A very evil man. Last week I came into this thread after only having watched the first episode of the third series and when I read that post, I realised, a new episode was released, as just around that time iTunes made me aware of that.
But the positive thing was, I was on the edge of the seat until the very end, expecting that kill.

And to that last episode's end, I cheered and I actually got up from my chair, as I quite like that character. But then again, another year goes by.
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Old January 15 2014, 07:16 AM   #141
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Yeah, I have to agree with Chilli and Count Zero. I thought the first part of the episode was perfect (the mind palace scene being by far my favourite part of the episode) but after that things started getting problematic. I don't believe for a moment that John would have so totally forgiven Mary. I think they should have either fully commited to Mary being the antagonist (and had her kill Magnusson, that would have been a great twist after all the buildup) or just left that part out.

I think A Scandal in Belgravia is still the best Sherlock episode.

Also, I wish they toned down the whole "the villain is a national security threat" angle. Two out of three episodes this season were like that and now Moriarty is back as well (on every screen in the country no less!). It's starting to feel more like a spy thriller than a crime drama. Not everything has to be earth-shattering.
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Old January 15 2014, 10:53 AM   #142
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Count Zero wrote: View Post
Mind blown, Chilli. I did feel unsatisfied with the episode but couldn't quite point my finger on what exactly was bothering me. You managed to mention all the points that subconsciously bugged me and some I hadn't considered, like the legal ramnifications.
To me, the rule of law has been subverted in the real world enough so that I don't feel it necessarily has to apply to fictional stories. Hence, I can buy that Sherlock wouldn't need to go to prison or even on trial due to his connections to the UK government/elites and Magnusson's sway over those same elites being broken. Hell, you could probably paint Magnusson as a sort of terrorist threat if you really wanted.

But of course, the ethical issues remain. What his wife has done in the past should make a difference to Watson although I can also understand his desire to not know. Sherlock surviving Mary shooting him was portrayed as a big deal with the overly long mind palace scene so the audience believes it is a very narrow thing and that Sherlock probably would have died if he hadn't applied his abilities. Yet, later, we are told that Mary aimed so that Sherlock would only be hurt not killed. So, either the mind palace scene is a bit pointless or Mary was extremely reckless, banking on Sherlock being able to calculate how to fall and not to go into shock. (That's if you buy the premise one could aim so precisely and predictably but it's fiction so let's go with that.)
RevdKathy and me are at the point of stopping watching, and only continuing with Doctor Who because it is Doctor Who. It's a shame, we enjoyed the wedding episode as a bit of fluff and half this episode until it became stupid towards the end.

At this point it seems it doesn't matter if things make sense as long as it's cool and twisty and if anyone has a problem with it they're just nerds, who cares what they think?

Personally I think the Moriarty thing is going to turn out to be a red herring. I think Mycroft will have set it up to get Sherlock back.
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Old January 15 2014, 11:17 AM   #143
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

^^^My thoughts exactly, after Mycroft not wanting him to take the suicide mission i think he used this ruse the get his brother back safe and out of danger.
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Old January 15 2014, 11:49 AM   #144
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

I'm absolutely with Chilli and Count Zero.

The episode had a few really great moments - the mindpalace, of course, but also the Mary-Sherlock-John-discussion.

But the ending just didn't sit well with me... at all.

* Even if it's the easiest way to get rid of Magnussen and his knowledge - shooting him isn't the only way to make him disappear.

* Why even count on a physical vault of knowledge? Everyone should be able to break into that. And Sherlock tends to underestimate other people's intelligence. So he should have taken into account that Magnussen just might have such a memory as himself and planned accordingly.

* By shooting Magnussen Sherlock crossed a line that I wish he hadn't. Because why did he do that? Was he so pissed off that Magnussen was taunting John? Was there no alternative (the roof scene had 13, not even counting Moriarty's shooting himself)? What and who did he actually protect?

* And Mary... Granted, she wanted to protect her happily ever after... but as an assassin shouldn't she have been able to wait for another opportunity instead of shooting Sherlock? And opportunity that doesn't link back to either Sherlock or John? I thought in the end that was a very damsel in distress like moment which I didn't enjoy. Also, as CountZero already said so eloquently: Mary's past doesn't matter to John?!? Even and especially as it might lead to Sherlock's death (by exile or more directly)? WTF?

* And yes, that fact that Sherlock is going to come out of this completely unscathed is bothering the hell out of me. He is a murderer - he didn't do it out of self-defense or to rescue John from certain death (like John did back in 1.01). And nothing's going to change that step over the line.

Except of course, if Magnussen's not dead (and again, we didn't really get a good look on his corpse, did we?).
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Old January 15 2014, 01:27 PM   #145
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

^^^I thought Sherlock killed Magnus because he was going to print everything about Mary, and when he did so Watson's and their unborn baby would also be in grave danger when her new identity was blown for all her enemys to find her in her new life.
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Old January 15 2014, 02:10 PM   #146
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Count Zero wrote: View Post
Mind blown, Chilli. I did feel unsatisfied with the episode but couldn't quite point my finger on what exactly was bothering me. You managed to mention all the points that subconsciously bugged me and some I hadn't considered, like the legal ramnifications.
To me, the rule of law has been subverted in the real world enough so that I don't feel it necessarily has to apply to fictional stories.
There is some truth to this (I applied this same logic to 24 back in the day - it's only when real life politicians started using 24 to justify their pro-torture policies that I started despising the show for its politics) ... but, even in-universe, it's going to be pretty on the nose. Sherlock is quite an in-universe celebrity, and he was just unambiguously caught in the act of murdering another celebrity. This is going to be public knowledge in-universe.


So if the Sherlock-universe British state decides to pardon him .. it'll be pardoning a guy that the public *knows* is a cold-blooded murderer, because his motives kinda resonate with the state.

This would be beyond the pale IRL as well, and I can't help wonder if the BBC really wants to produce a series that shows the British legal system to be on par with the legal system of Azerbaijan. But at this point, they don't have much of a choice.

Haggis and tatties wrote: View Post
^^^I thought Sherlock killed Magnus because he was going to print everything about Mary, and when he did so Watson's and their unborn baby would also be in grave danger when her new identity was blown for all her enemys to find her in her new life.
Given Magnussen's talk of not being a villain, but a businessman out to make acquisitions, like the one he just made .. no. He was way too pragmatic to do this. He WAS going to make use of the power he now had over Watson.
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Old January 15 2014, 04:17 PM   #147
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Chilli wrote: View Post
To me, the season finale was entertaining while I was watching it, but the more I think about it now that it's come and gone, the more my reaction is "wow, fuck this show".

Holmes shooting CAM in the face: That'd have been an OK way to end it if this was the final series. A rather massive deviation from canon (Holmes taking no steps to ensure CAM's murderer gets caught is pretty different from him doing the killing himself), but whatever: the show could have concluded with Sherlock finally snapping, proving himself to indeed not only be a sociopath but a *dangerous* one that is a menace to society, and going to prison.
First and foremost, Sherlock Holmes is the last place to apply the appalling label of 'canon.' Doyle couldn't have given less of a toss about continuity and contradicted the ever-living-piss out of himself on every occasion possible. He didn't care, so long as the story he was writing at the moment was internally consistent.

So getting in a twist about how a modern take on the Sherlock character deviates from what Doyle wrote a hundred and thirty-odd years ago is pretty rich.

As for Sherlock shooting Magnusson rather than letting someone else kill him and cover it up, I don't think Sherlock had a choice. He valued the continued freedom of John Watson more than the life of Magnusson. It was that simple. Sherlock is possessed of his own concept of right and wrong and I've never been of the opinion that he was following some sort of Batman-like "I will not kill" code.

As this is not going to happen, though, the writers are in a bit of a bind now: there's no way they can go on from here that is not, in one way or another, despicable. Ep 1 of the next series will be about Sherlock being brought back to London to face off with (faux?) Moriarty: OK, fine, extreme circumstances call for extreme measures, blah blah blah. What then? He's still a murderer. He shot an unarmed man in the head, right in front of the police. It was not in self-defence, he was not under duress. He was just really pissed.
Well that's reductive in the extreme. Both he and Watson were under extreme duress. Their freedom was in jeopardy as Magnusson was poised to sell them out and testify that they came to him to sell state secrets. Both were facing jail terms. Sherlock promised Watson that he would be there for him and Mary should any need arise.

And it did. Killing Magnusson was the only way to ensure Watson didn't go to prison and lose his new (completely insane) wife and unborn daughter.

After the immediate threat has passed, what will happen then? Will the show continue in prison (or with Sherlock facing his de-facto death sentence undercover in Eastern Europe), or will he be pardoned in light of the services he'll render the crown in the coming episode? How disgustingly Nietzschean. "Oh, never mind that thing where you shot a guy in the head, you've been a good boy since, and he was a real prick anyway. Let bygones be bygones. And vigilante justice is actually pretty cool, saves the police work."
This is the Sherlock that viciously beat the thug who attacked Mrs. Hudson and threw him out of a window. This is the Sherlock who very clearly killed whomever was going to behead Irene Adler. He's killed and maimed before to protect the people he cares about.

Mary shooting Sherlock, and her being forgiven for it, was equally harebrained. "Oh, I know you shot my best friend in the chest, but you only did so because you love me!" - give me a fucking break. John's bold declarations that he does not care about her past: if her past has molded her into a person that's willing to shoot an (at this point) innocent person in the chest (fuck that whole "non-lethally" bullshit) to avoid facing the consequences of her (actual) crimes, you'd better fucking care, you complete and utter moron.
I disagree entirely. John loves Mary, maybe even almost as much as he loves Sherlock. I'd have done the same thing were I in his position. Sherlock understood that Mary could have killed him, but much as Sherlock did, made the best of an impossible situation by doing what she could to preserve the life and freedom of John Watson.

Moffat did this on DW already, and he's doing it here too: have characters do things that seem irredeemable, and then bend over backwards trying to show how the character in question is, actually, redeemable. And fail. To hell with that. If you don't want your characters to be irredeemable, stop having them shoot people.
What Sherlock did was hardly irredeemable. The show's entire concept is about an intellectual superman who literally knows better than anyone. If you're prepared to buy into that concept, it's hardly a stretch to see him perform violent acts outside the law in preservation of his concept of right and wrong. And again, we've seen Sherlock do these things before, with nary a peep of protest.

So, for me the show crossed a line with this last episode - it's obviously in a place (that DW has been at for some time) where Moffat cares more about shocking the audience than he cares about telling a coherent story.

Hence: Wow, fuck this show.
No, you're mad about Doctor Who and are furiously projecting onto Sherlock. Understandable, but hardly defensible.
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Old January 15 2014, 05:11 PM   #148
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

The Stig wrote: View Post
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To me, the season finale was entertaining while I was watching it, but the more I think about it now that it's come and gone, the more my reaction is "wow, fuck this show".

Holmes shooting CAM in the face: That'd have been an OK way to end it if this was the final series. A rather massive deviation from canon (Holmes taking no steps to ensure CAM's murderer gets caught is pretty different from him doing the killing himself), but whatever: the show could have concluded with Sherlock finally snapping, proving himself to indeed not only be a sociopath but a *dangerous* one that is a menace to society, and going to prison.
First and foremost, Sherlock Holmes is the last place to apply the appalling label of 'canon.' Doyle couldn't have given less of a toss about continuity and contradicted the ever-living-piss out of himself on every occasion possible. He didn't care, so long as the story he was writing at the moment was internally consistent. So getting in a twist about how a modern take on the Sherlock character deviates from what Doyle wrote a hundred and thirty-odd years ago is pretty rich.
You did see the "but whatever" after I mentioned it was a deviation from canon, yes? I *don't* give a toss about that. Like I said, I could very well have lived with the conclusion of the plot if this had been the final season. It's just that I see no way this series can continue from here in a way that's ethically defensible - and yet, they're already talking about 2+ more seasons.

As for Sherlock shooting Magnusson rather than letting someone else kill him and cover it up, I don't think Sherlock had a choice. He valued the continued freedom of John Watson more than the life of Magnusson. It was that simple. Sherlock is possessed of his own concept of right and wrong and I've never been of the opinion that he was following some sort of Batman-like "I will not kill" code.
Again, my issue is not that Sherlock killing Magnussen is out of character for Sherlock. It's that letting him get away with it is out of character for the justice system of a functioning democracy.

Well that's reductive in the extreme. Both he and Watson were under extreme duress. Their freedom was in jeopardy as Magnusson was poised to sell them out and testify that they came to him to sell state secrets.
Magnussen was poised to report them for illegal activities that they did, in fact, commit. Of course, the plot was more complicated than that, but in no sane court of law would Sherlock's actions pass as "self-defence". This was even established in the series: He was not going to get away with it.

Yet given the 2+ seasons that are coming, one can only assume that he is going to. The only way this can happen is if heroic deeds to come will in some way legally vindicate him. Which is not the way a functioning legal system works, and, ethically appalling.

And it did. Killing Magnusson was the only way to ensure Watson didn't go to prison and lose his new (completely insane) wife and unborn daughter.
Yes, indeed. But again, a desire to protect criminals doesn't make it "self-defence", legally, by any stretch.

This is the Sherlock that viciously beat the thug who attacked Mrs. Hudson and threw him out of a window. This is the Sherlock who very clearly killed whomever was going to behead Irene Adler. He's killed and maimed before to protect the people he cares about.
Indeed. He's never made a secret about the fact that he is, in fact, a sociopath. (This is one thing I've liked about the series: the characterization is spot-on. Conan Doyle's Sherlock, while indeed somewhat shaky depending on C.D.'s mindset at the time, was not a nice person.)

Yet none of these previous incidents happened in contexts where his guilt, in the eyes of the law, was indisputable. When it comes to Magnussen, it could not be any more indisputable.

My problem is not with what Sherlock did. My problem is with the fact that he will get away with it.


I disagree entirely. John loves Mary, maybe even almost as much as he loves Sherlock. I'd have done the same thing were I in his position.
Holy shit dude.

What Sherlock did was hardly irredeemable. The show's entire concept is about an intellectual superman who literally knows better than anyone. If you're prepared to buy into that concept, it's hardly a stretch to see him perform violent acts outside the law in preservation of his concept of right and wrong. And again, we've seen Sherlock do these things before, with nary a peep of protest.
See above: the problem isn't that this was out of character. The problem was that these developments in a show that's not actually about to end puts the plot development somewhere where the BBC ethics board could seriously pull the plug on this show before it represents the British legal system in a way that's simply unacceptable on national TV.

No, you're mad about Doctor Who and are furiously projecting onto Sherlock. Understandable, but hardly defensible.
Semi. I'm disappointed about Doctor Who. I used to be a big fan of Moffat's, and still am of his earlier work (though some of the later weaknesses are obvious there too: Press Gang already did the whole escalating drama thing, where the threats the cast faces have to always outdo the previous threats they've faced, eventually leading to plotlines that are simply feel out of place in a show about a kiddie newspaper). I *loved* his DW eps in the first three seasons. I was moderately excited when he took over as the show runner (I'd disliked his season 4 episodes, and detested the River Song plotline from the start), but quickly cooled off his interpretation of Who: it felt like an obvious case of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". As soon as he was in charge and made the rules, there were no rules for him, which made for absolutely ghastly television.

I've been moderately enjoying Sherlock, and seeing it as proof that Moffat can, in fact, still write. I've been wondering if it's the fact that he shares creative control with Mark Gatiss that's been keeping his Sherlock plots more grounded and enjoyable, or if it's simply the nature of the show (if you don't have a machine that can take you anywhere in time and space, there're bound to be more rules). I actually loved the wedding episode.

This, however, had all the symptoms Moffat's worse DW work has had.
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Old January 15 2014, 05:16 PM   #149
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Well I have to agree with others that the last episode was a bit of an out of bounds of what seems to be logically acceptable on the show. I didn't expect the episode to get such high praise because to me there was no mystery to be solved here. It was just drama building upon itself with characters becoming less realistic. Coming back from the dead, being secret assassins etc...

With that said I'm still watching and will continue to. It's a fantastic show and my criticism is based on it's own high standards.

BTW. I loved the reference to 'M' from the Bond series at the end.
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Old January 15 2014, 05:25 PM   #150
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Re: Sherlock - Series 3

Chilli wrote: View Post
Count Zero wrote: View Post
Mind blown, Chilli. I did feel unsatisfied with the episode but couldn't quite point my finger on what exactly was bothering me. You managed to mention all the points that subconsciously bugged me and some I hadn't considered, like the legal ramnifications.
To me, the rule of law has been subverted in the real world enough so that I don't feel it necessarily has to apply to fictional stories.
There is some truth to this (I applied this same logic to 24 back in the day - it's only when real life politicians started using 24 to justify their pro-torture policies that I started despising the show for its politics) ... but, even in-universe, it's going to be pretty on the nose. Sherlock is quite an in-universe celebrity, and he was just unambiguously caught in the act of murdering another celebrity. This is going to be public knowledge in-universe.


So if the Sherlock-universe British state decides to pardon him .. it'll be pardoning a guy that the public *knows* is a cold-blooded murderer, because his motives kinda resonate with the state.

This would be beyond the pale IRL as well, and I can't help wonder if the BBC really wants to produce a series that shows the British legal system to be on par with the legal system of Azerbaijan. But at this point, they don't have much of a choice.

Haggis and tatties wrote: View Post
^^^I thought Sherlock killed Magnus because he was going to print everything about Mary, and when he did so Watson's and their unborn baby would also be in grave danger when her new identity was blown for all her enemys to find her in her new life.
Given Magnussen's talk of not being a villain, but a businessman out to make acquisitions, like the one he just made .. no. He was way too pragmatic to do this. He WAS going to make use of the power he now had over Watson.
Magnus was a blackmailer, he was a criminal, he may not have pulled the trigger himself, but was quite happy to put people in harms way if his demands were not meet, as i see it Sherlock chose his friends lives over allowing Magnus to be in the position to put their lives in danger when he chose to do so.

You could say it was elementary decision.
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