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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old December 30 2013, 05:31 PM   #1
desfem79
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Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

I do, despite many other fans thinking he was acting a prick.

I think he essentially got corrupted by power, despite looking a "good guy" in TNG. He probably was, but then he changed due to holding command of the Council.

I also don't get how people say Klingons are hypocritical, but then yeah, it simply means Klingon psychology is similar to human psychology. Klingons are all different, and will use any opportunity to further their own agenda. So there are good Klingons like Worf, Kurn and Martok, and "bad" ones like Duras, L'Ursa (French and Latin, just realised that haha), B'Etor, K'Mpec (to an extent, though IMO he acted in good faith), etc.

And per that ep, Trill are not to talk, unless Ezri knew that half of her species were denied the right to bond with symbionts. Or humans, yeah, love and "outgrowing infancy", despite Section 31, Worf and Ezri's CO tricking Romulans into the war, corrupted Admirals a plenty haha.. As Kahless is more or less the Klingon Jesus, maybe there was a sacred text which he said "let he who has never acted without honour cast the first stone.."
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Old December 30 2013, 06:04 PM   #2
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

Gowron was corrupted long before he had power. He was a politician. He was only a good guy in TNG because he was the lesser of two evils and had more common interests with Picard and Worf.

It's true the other cultures we see in Trek are no worse than the Klingons in terms of hypocrisy. But in season 7 of DS9, Gowron was taking it to an extreme, putting his desire to take personal credit for winning the war over actually winning the war.

Though the corruption we see in Starfleet is less universal than the corruption in Klingon politics.
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Old December 30 2013, 06:16 PM   #3
desfem79
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Gowron was corrupted long before he had power. He was a politician. He was only a good guy in TNG because he was the lesser of two evils and had more common interests with Picard and Worf.

It's true the other cultures we see in Trek are no worse than the Klingons in terms of hypocrisy. But in season 7 of DS9, Gowron was taking it to an extreme, putting his desire to take personal credit for winning the war over actually winning the war.

Though the corruption we see in Starfleet is less universal than the corruption in Klingon politics.
it is? Even in Kirk's day, top brass in Starfleet were complicit with outside forces. Even the late Brock Peters/Joe Sisko lol.
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Old December 30 2013, 06:48 PM   #4
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

Gowron was always an ass, but I think they were hinting at him having been replaced by a Founder with the way he was acting in Season Seven.
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Old December 30 2013, 07:03 PM   #5
Deranged Nasat
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

I believe that Gowron was perfectly in character throughout, and yes, he was consistent. He was a politician through-and-through. As is true for many (if not most?) of those who pursue social/political status in real life, the instinct to defend that status once acquired was stronger than his other desires or personal qualities. To protect his position was his primary goal. He could certainly be reasonable, he could certainly be honourable, but always the most important thing to him was the pursuit and maintenance of political power. I don't even say that in a particularly judgemental way, to be honest, it was just the way Gowron worked. In Klingon culture, where weakness of any kind is an invite to attack, he was probably even more committed to playing the political game than he would have been elsewhere. Martok was becoming a threat to Gowron, so Gowron's instinct was to sabotage the rival by any means. Not a smart move or a wise one, to be sure, but sadly expected for both Gowron personally and - as Dax notes - for the Empire.
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Old December 30 2013, 08:58 PM   #6
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Gowron was corrupted long before he had power. He was a politician. He was only a good guy in TNG because he was the lesser of two evils and had more common interests with Picard and Worf.

It's true the other cultures we see in Trek are no worse than the Klingons in terms of hypocrisy. But in season 7 of DS9, Gowron was taking it to an extreme, putting his desire to take personal credit for winning the war over actually winning the war.

Though the corruption we see in Starfleet is less universal than the corruption in Klingon politics.
it is? Even in Kirk's day, top brass in Starfleet were complicit with outside forces. Even the late Brock Peters/Joe Sisko lol.
Federation corruptness is usually portrayed as being confined to individuals, whereas the corruption of the Klingon high council was systemic.
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Old December 31 2013, 01:46 AM   #7
arch101
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

In a culture where an individuals deeds speak loudest, it was inevitable that, unless Gowron was having a fair share of success in personally leading troops to victory, that he would have to try to sabotage whomever was having the most success on the battlefield. Even if that commander had no political aspirations of his own. Look at how Stalin treated Zhukov. Stalin tried his best to make his people think he personally masterminded the victory over the Nazi's, but it was Zhukov's abilities as a field commander that really made the difference on the Soviet side. It was Zhukov who stood in the ruins of Berlin in 1945 while Stalin was comfortable at home. And yet, after the war, Zhukov was practically made an unperson when he SHOULD have been as celebrated by the Soviet people as Eisenhower was by us. Stalin just couldn't tolerate that. Nor could Gowron.
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Old December 31 2013, 01:58 AM   #8
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

Gowron's behavior definitely wasn't out of left field. Back in "Unification", it was revealed that he was trying to take all the credit for winning the Klingon Civil War, ignoring the role that Starfleet played.
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Old December 31 2013, 03:36 AM   #9
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
I do, despite many other fans thinking he was acting a prick.

I think he essentially got corrupted by power, despite looking a "good guy" in TNG. He probably was, but then he changed due to holding command of the Council.
I always thought there was a dark and thick cloud of suspicions hovering above Gowron during all of his appearances on TNG. I never really saw him as a "good guy", just an useful ally that were beneficial to the Federation and Picard's Enterprise when the D was zipping between the stars.

Also, I think I remember a thread where some posters still thought it was actually Gowron who had poisoned K'mpec
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Old December 31 2013, 07:06 AM   #10
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

^ I didn't think that at all. Notice how when the subject of K'mpec's poisoning is first brought up, Gowron immediately goes "What?!?" as if the very idea was horrible to him.

Also: While Gowron was a jackass towards the end, Worf must have felt that Gowron died with some sort of honor, as Worf did the death howl over the body. So I think we can assume that, despite Gowron's actions towards the end of his life, he did redeem himself (somewhat).

Oh, and welcome back, Deranged Nasat.
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Old December 31 2013, 11:39 AM   #11
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
I think he essentially got corrupted by power, despite looking a "good guy" in TNG. He probably was, but then he changed due to holding command of the Council.
Gowron was never portrayed this way in TNG. Re-watch "Redemption" in which the character was introduced. Everybody considered him capable of poisoning K'mpec.

From the very start, Gowron was always portrayed as the lesser evil compared to the Duras family. He was a son of bitch, but at least he was "our" son of a bitch.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:02 PM   #12
desfem79
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
I think he essentially got corrupted by power, despite looking a "good guy" in TNG. He probably was, but then he changed due to holding command of the Council.
Gowron was never portrayed this way in TNG. Re-watch "Redemption" in which the character was introduced. Everybody considered him capable of poisoning K'mpec.

From the very start, Gowron was always portrayed as the lesser evil compared to the Duras family. He was a son of bitch, but at least he was "our" son of a bitch.
This is true I guess. I remember in Reunion he tried to bribe K'helyr.

I've always wondered what Picard have said when he heard Worf of all people killed Gowron. Most likely as a long-standing Captain, Starfleet would have given him the heads-up on all that Sisko and co. were doing, and probably said good riddance to Gowron and "yay!" for his former Security/Tactical chief killing him.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:10 PM   #13
Ensign_Redshirt
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
I think he essentially got corrupted by power, despite looking a "good guy" in TNG. He probably was, but then he changed due to holding command of the Council.
Gowron was never portrayed this way in TNG. Re-watch "Redemption" in which the character was introduced. Everybody considered him capable of poisoning K'mpec.

From the very start, Gowron was always portrayed as the lesser evil compared to the Duras family. He was a son of bitch, but at least he was "our" son of a bitch.
This is true I guess. I remember in Reunion he tried to bribe K'helyr.

I've always wondered what Picard have said when he heard Worf of all people killed Gowron. Most likely as a long-standing Captain, Starfleet would have given him the heads-up on all that Sisko and co. were doing, and probably said good riddance to Gowron and "yay!" for his former Security/Tactical chief killing him.
This would have been a bit out of character for Picard. At the very least, he would probably have regreted that there had been no other solution, but he would have also acknowledged the fact that Martok seemed to be a a more reliable Klingon leader from the Federation's POV.
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Old December 31 2013, 08:31 PM   #14
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

Picard likely would have breathed a sigh of relief and said to himself, "Thank god that Klingon shit isn't happening on my ship anymore...!"
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Old January 1 2014, 01:50 PM   #15
desfem79
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Re: Do you reckon Gowron's actions in season seven were normal?

Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
Ensign_Redshirt wrote: View Post

Gowron was never portrayed this way in TNG. Re-watch "Redemption" in which the character was introduced. Everybody considered him capable of poisoning K'mpec.

From the very start, Gowron was always portrayed as the lesser evil compared to the Duras family. He was a son of bitch, but at least he was "our" son of a bitch.
This is true I guess. I remember in Reunion he tried to bribe K'helyr.

I've always wondered what Picard have said when he heard Worf of all people killed Gowron. Most likely as a long-standing Captain, Starfleet would have given him the heads-up on all that Sisko and co. were doing, and probably said good riddance to Gowron and "yay!" for his former Security/Tactical chief killing him.
This would have been a bit out of character for Picard. At the very least, he would probably have regreted that there had been no other solution, but he would have also acknowledged the fact that Martok seemed to be a a more reliable Klingon leader from the Federation's POV.
Even though Picard was a very moral and principled person, he could be an "ends justify the means" individual when needs be. I think given how well he knew Klingon culture, and of course how well he knew Worf as a more upstanding "moral" Klingon, he would IMO have accepted it as is. Per Klingon morals/laws, Worf did the only thing he could, as that's how they remove incompetent or corrupt leaders. Also, had Starfleet informed him of what Gowron was doing to undermine the war effort, well even he may have thought one less corrupted Klingon Chancellor vs. the Federation's existence is no true loss.
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