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Old December 31 2013, 11:34 PM   #31
plynch
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

TNG's stories are divided among more officers: just 3.5 on TOS, really -- Scotty as a half, though I love him; the others are really only a bit more than extras -- but 7 on TNG with Riker, Bev, Troi, and Geordi either dull characters or actors imho.

And I generally like TNG. But that dilution of storylines among players, half of whom were dull-ish might account for some of its perceived dullness by some here. Picard, Worf, and Data make up for that with me, esp. Picard however. Plus I remember it on the air and it was fun.


Watching recently on the beeb, it was just the switching between the two plots bit by bit that seemed slow. I do remember TNG as having good stand alone sci fi eps. Actually maybe it's time to watch it again! One could do worse. Been thinking I need a new Netflix show (no real TV in house) since Breaking Bad ended.

EDIT: Forgot Wesley! He's not boring, I'll give him that.
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Last edited by plynch; January 1 2014 at 12:36 AM. Reason: forgot Wesley
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Old January 1 2014, 03:23 AM   #32
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I have always found TNG pacing slow, much slower than than DS9, VOY or ENT.

TOS now.. is nice and snappy
Maybe it's because I'm a TOS enthusiast, but I'm never bored watching it. I can really get into some episodes of the Berman-era series, but I find the bad ones simply unwatchable.
The closest I've come to bored watching TOS is The Alternative Factor which while not my least favorite ep (The Omega Glory is) is certainly the dullest to me and by dullest I mean "the only dull episode".

But yes, watching TOS at an impressionable age when it wasn't competing with better tv and better sci fi especially does mean I may be less than objective. I do love the characters though which I have never been able to say about TNG, my least favorite Trek. Shatner's Kirk is very entertaining doing.. anything

I remember The Cage as being slower paced than the rest of TOS, is this accurate?
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Old January 1 2014, 03:48 AM   #33
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

teacake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I have always found TNG pacing slow, much slower than than DS9, VOY or ENT.

TOS now.. is nice and snappy
Maybe it's because I'm a TOS enthusiast, but I'm never bored watching it. I can really get into some episodes of the Berman-era series, but I find the bad ones simply unwatchable.
The closest I've come to bored watching TOS is The Alternative Factor which while not my least favorite ep (The Omega Glory is) is certainly the dullest to me and by dullest I mean "the only dull episode".

But yes, watching TOS at an impressionable age when it wasn't competing with better tv and better sci fi especially does mean I may be less than objective. I do love the characters though which I have never been able to say about TNG, my least favorite Trek. Shatner's Kirk is very entertaining doing.. anything

I remember The Cage as being slower paced than the rest of TOS, is this accurate?
Hey maybe you're right. Maybe Shatner is a big part of it. Along with Kelley.

Maybe Hunter's Pike combined with Majel's Number One are too serious/dull to sustain a fast-paced series.

I also think what they crammed into some episodes in TOS like 'Journey to Babel'. Spock had a human mother, his father disowned him, Spock was teased as a child, Vulcans are shown to be sexists (or something like that), Spock's father nearly dies of a heart condition, Kirk is nearly killed, Spock is nearly killed, we are introduced to Andorians, Tellerites, Orions, Spock's Mother slaps him across the face. Have I missed something? Probably
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Old January 1 2014, 04:07 AM   #34
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

PicardSpeedo wrote: View Post
It is truly unfortunate that "Tuvok's Genitals," the planned sequel, never got the traction it needed with the studio to be produced.
I think the draft titled "T's Nuts" was what really sunk it.

On-topic: I do in most ways prefer TOS' sense of pacing and focus to the parallel-storyline thing that TNG pioneered. TNG's character-development byplots did, admittedly, over the long term make me like and relate with the characters better and made the larger-ensemble thing work; but the soap-opera-in-space feeling that went with it hasn't aged well for me.

Moreover, while TNG made the idea work with some simple, likable hooks -- Data-learns-to-be-human, Worf-learns-to-be-Klingon, Riker-learns-why-he's-still-on-the-ship -- the character-development subplot was something that subsequent shows felt obligated to copy. DS9 was able to make it work most of the time, since they had some vivid and likeable characters to work with. But with VOY and ENT it was almost uniformly disastrous.
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Old January 1 2014, 04:55 AM   #35
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Maybe it's because I'm a TOS enthusiast, but I'm never bored watching it. I can really get into some episodes of the Berman-era series, but I find the bad ones simply unwatchable.
The closest I've come to bored watching TOS is The Alternative Factor which while not my least favorite ep (The Omega Glory is) is certainly the dullest to me and by dullest I mean "the only dull episode".

But yes, watching TOS at an impressionable age when it wasn't competing with better tv and better sci fi especially does mean I may be less than objective. I do love the characters though which I have never been able to say about TNG, my least favorite Trek. Shatner's Kirk is very entertaining doing.. anything

I remember The Cage as being slower paced than the rest of TOS, is this accurate?
Hey maybe you're right. Maybe Shatner is a big part of it. Along with Kelley.

Maybe Hunter's Pike combined with Majel's Number One are too serious/dull to sustain a fast-paced series.

I also think what they crammed into some episodes in TOS like 'Journey to Babel'. Spock had a human mother, his father disowned him, Spock was teased as a child, Vulcans are shown to be sexists (or something like that), Spock's father nearly dies of a heart condition, Kirk is nearly killed, Spock is nearly killed, we are introduced to Andorians, Tellerites, Orions, Spock's Mother slaps him across the face. Have I missed something? Probably
Coloured cubes of food! Dress uniforms with shiny ribbons on them that make everyone look hot! Vulcan domesticated animal revealed! (no, not Sarek) The Orion Syndicate first mentioned but trickily leaving out the word Syndicate!

Yes, crammed is right.
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Old January 1 2014, 05:47 PM   #36
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

Well, I restarted TNG with S3 (heeding people's advice) and it was pretty good. "Evolution" with a decent guest role and actor, one main plot with a bit of Wes and mom plot, but integrated with the main. I truly didn't know what would happen other than the Big E would be ok. I cared how the aged wunderkind and Wes would resolve their probs. A couple nice directing bits, hangar deck set, computer core set, Picard Trekkily not wanting to just nuke the nanos wrecking his ship: a solid B.

Was the "unrelated subplot" a later development in the show?
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Old January 1 2014, 07:03 PM   #37
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

plynch wrote: View Post
Was the "unrelated subplot" a later development in the show?
I don't think the subplot was usually unrelated; it generally tied in to the main plot at some level and sometimes proved the key to its resolution, it was just more focused on character development.

Samaritan Snare -- with the Enterprise dealing with the Pakleds and Picard dealing with surgery -- was in Season 2. Other well-known examples include The Host (introduction of the Trills), The Most Toys (the crew comes to terms with Data's apparent demise), Hollow Pursuits (Reg Barclay), The Measure of a Man (Picard's past with the JAG officer), Force of Nature (a Data-Spot subplot), and quite famously Yesterday's Enterprise (Yar's subplot) and The Best of Both Worlds (Riker's rivalry with Shelby). That's a very abbreviated list, and I have the feeling a lot of those are from Season 3 or later.
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Old January 1 2014, 08:40 PM   #38
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

PicardSpeedo wrote: View Post
Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Depending on the episode, one thing I liked about TOS's pacing was the sci fi talk.

They took more time to get deep into the sci fi aspect of a situation instead of just using techno-babble.

Spectre Of the Gun- the scene Spock is explaining to everyone what happened to Chekov--it's a good example.
"Spock's Brain" is considered by many to be the pinnacle of TOS, and one of the finest pieces of American television cinema ever made. It is truly unfortunate that "Tuvok's Genitals," the planned sequel, never got the traction it needed with the studio to be produced.
That's why I covered myself-- That's why I said "depending on the episode"

TOS had some pretty bad episodes, but I discovered that 50- 60's style sci fi had something going for it; they couldn't rely on special effects all the time, so they took extra time to tell a story.

The same thing with the Twilight Zone when you pay extra attention to the dialog.

Balance of Terror -- this was an example of perfect pacing (IMO).

It started off interesting, the battle/strategy scenes were intense.

But one of the things I really noticed was the ending. after the incident, after speaking with a sad crewman, Kirk walks off into a main corridor while the closing credits are appearing.

It had a cool, modern feel to it.
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Old January 1 2014, 08:47 PM   #39
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

Nightdiamond wrote: View Post
Balance of Terror -- this was an example of perfect pacing (IMO). [ . . . ] one of the things I really noticed was the ending. after the incident, after speaking with a sad crewman, Kirk walks off into a main corridor while the closing credits are appearing.

It had a cool, modern feel to it.
Agree with this, definitely.
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Old January 1 2014, 09:06 PM   #40
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

TNG is slower paced than TOS. And definitely slower paced than VOY or ENT.

Not sure about DS9, though. The pace could be quite slow in its first couple of seasons, before the Dominion and Defiant, and Worf, showed their heads. Seasons 1 and 2 in particular, are SLOOOOOW.
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Old January 1 2014, 11:37 PM   #41
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
plynch wrote: View Post
Was the "unrelated subplot" a later development in the show?
I don't think the subplot was usually unrelated; it generally tied in to the main plot at some level and sometimes proved the key to its resolution, it was just more focused on character development.

Samaritan Snare -- with the Enterprise dealing with the Pakleds and Picard dealing with surgery -- was in Season 2. Other well-known examples include The Host (introduction of the Trills), The Most Toys (the crew comes to terms with Data's apparent demise), Hollow Pursuits (Reg Barclay), The Measure of a Man (Picard's past with the JAG officer), Force of Nature (a Data-Spot subplot), and quite famously Yesterday's Enterprise (Yar's subplot) and The Best of Both Worlds (Riker's rivalry with Shelby). That's a very abbreviated list, and I have the feeling a lot of those are from Season 3 or later.
Thanks. It's all lost in the mists of my memory. The ones I saw a week ago seemed unrelated, but I might not have been paying enough attention.
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Old January 2 2014, 06:38 AM   #42
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Definitely. I breezed through a TOS rewatch about a year ago, but couldn't manage more than half of TNG. It was slow motion Trek in comparison (and also incredibly bland, character and plot-wise)
The most highly rated show in the ST franchise. And unlike STXI, TNG is still being watched and discussed.
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Old January 2 2014, 06:51 AM   #43
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

Keep in mind that TOS only had three Central Characters, and that was on a good day. A lot of the time it was just Kirk and Spock as the Centrals.

It's inherently easier to tell a single story when you have such a small cast (also, in TOS the Trio were also Freudian Archetypes of the Id, Ego and Superego which makes the interactions easier) without needing any B or C plots. Not so when you have a larger ensembles of 7 or more characters.

So if it's down to the pacing and lack of other plots, TOS had it easier due to the smaller cast and said cast also being designed to operate as one whole "Freud" unit vs TNG and Beyond's larger ensembles.
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Old January 2 2014, 09:11 AM   #44
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

I must be the odd man out, here. I grew up watching TOS for years before TNG ever came out. I've seen many episodes from both series multiple times. However, after I took a decade-long break from Trek, I came back to the series and I found that I could watch almost any TNG series and find something I enjoyed about it, but more than half of TOS episodes were now too tedious for me to finish. I think it's because I would remember the 'twist' or resolution of the stories and entire episodes were just build-up to that. In TNG, the character stories could still be interesting even if the main plot was planet-of-Romans silly.


Also, the soap-opera nature of TNG really gave us a lot of fodder for Youtube edits.
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Old January 2 2014, 09:14 AM   #45
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Re: Berman-era v. TOS Pacing: What do you think?

Ghrakh wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Definitely. I breezed through a TOS rewatch about a year ago, but couldn't manage more than half of TNG. It was slow motion Trek in comparison (and also incredibly bland, character and plot-wise)
The most highly rated show in the ST franchise. And unlike STXI, TNG is still being watched and discussed.
The original series, aired in the three network era, had much larger ratings (even when it was in last place) than any other Trek series.

The '09 movie of course is still being watched (I've seen it on TV regularly) and discussed (we've got a whole forum here devoted to it and the recent sequel).

Which is not to rip on Star Trek: The Next Generation. I have the first season on Blu-Ray and have seen the entire series at least four times.
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