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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 31 2013, 04:34 PM   #46
trekker670
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

billcosby wrote: View Post
Relics is a fun little 42 minute romp.
The Real TNG missed opportunity was Reunification.

Bringing Spock back - yes.
Hanging out in caves the entire time - no.
Agreed. Relics was fun, one of my favorite cross-over episodes. Unification is rather boring, as much as I love Spock, it's hard to sit through the episode.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:36 PM   #47
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

trekker670 wrote: View Post

You're one of tens of thousands of fans, even more back when TNG was on air, so I don't think just because BillJ "wouldn't have cared one bit" would justify the decision.
I think most people watching TNG wouldn't have cared one iota if a TOS bit player had been offed with a line of dialogue. Seriously, they obviously offed Amanda in "Sarek" and I don't remember any "fan outrage" and I'd say the character is a bit more important than a Rand or Riley.

Some hardcore fans believe everything should be catered to them and if it isn't, then it's being done to piss them off.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:54 PM   #48
Use of Time
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
trekker670 wrote: View Post

You're one of tens of thousands of fans, even more back when TNG was on air, so I don't think just because BillJ "wouldn't have cared one bit" would justify the decision.
I think most people watching TNG wouldn't have cared one iota if a TOS bit player had been offed with a line of dialogue. Seriously, they obviously offed Amanda in "Sarek" and I don't remember any "fan outrage" and I'd say the character is a bit more important than a Rand or Riley.

Some hardcore fans believe everything should be catered to them and if it isn't, then it's being done to piss them off.
I don't know man I think Trekker's point makes perfect sense. It doesn't really have anything to do with the episode so not really a reason to off someone for shits and giggles. I know that most people wouldn't care but I hardly think it's fair to go at Trekker with your second paragraph there. I don't think that is what he is saying at all. I think it is more along the lines of meh, what's the point of killing someone with a disposable line of dialogue.
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Old December 31 2013, 05:04 PM   #49
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Use of Time wrote: View Post

I don't know man I think Trekker's point makes perfect sense. It doesn't really have anything to do with the episode so not really a reason to off someone for shits and giggles. I know that most people wouldn't care but I hardly think it's fair to go at Trekker with your second paragraph there. I don't think that is what he is saying at all. I think it is more along the lines of meh, what's the point of killing someone with a disposable line of dialogue.
I'm not the one who brought "fan outrage" into the discussion...

trekker670 wrote: View Post

If you've been paying attention, you'll notice no one stated TPTB weren't willing to kill of TOS characters, but rather that they didn't want to "waste" a character by killing them off-screen. Sure, people might like a reference to Uhura or some other character, but the fan outrage caused by killing them off with a single line of dialog would be suicide.
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Old December 31 2013, 05:20 PM   #50
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Seriously, they obviously offed Amanda in "Sarek" and I don't remember any "fan outrage"
You weren't at my house when it aired. Perrin can die in a fire. (But no, they saved that for Picard's nephew that I liked okay. )
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Old December 31 2013, 05:44 PM   #51
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Seriously, they obviously offed Amanda in "Sarek" and I don't remember any "fan outrage" and I'd say the character is a bit more important than a Rand or Riley.
It's not the same thing. They didn't beamed up Sarek and Amanda...and whoops...sorry Ambassador it was a bad idea to transport a 160-year-old human, she's dead. It's easy to accept she died decades ago.
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Old December 31 2013, 05:58 PM   #52
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post

I don't know man I think Trekker's point makes perfect sense. It doesn't really have anything to do with the episode so not really a reason to off someone for shits and giggles. I know that most people wouldn't care but I hardly think it's fair to go at Trekker with your second paragraph there. I don't think that is what he is saying at all. I think it is more along the lines of meh, what's the point of killing someone with a disposable line of dialogue.
I'm not the one who brought "fan outrage" into the discussion...

trekker670 wrote: View Post

If you've been paying attention, you'll notice no one stated TPTB weren't willing to kill of TOS characters, but rather that they didn't want to "waste" a character by killing them off-screen. Sure, people might like a reference to Uhura or some other character, but the fan outrage caused by killing them off with a single line of dialog would be suicide.
Yes but it seems kinda like a valid point. We are talking about Star Trek fans here. Do you really consider it outside the realm of possibility that the TPTB said to themselves, "Nah, lets just kill some random name. I really don't want to deal with the fanbase if we kill some name character they hold dear." I really wouldn't have cared if they had killed Rand or Riley or even Sulu but it is obviously a road they didn't want to go down. The reasons seem pretty obvious to me.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:17 PM   #53
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Use of Time wrote: View Post

Yes but it seems kinda like a valid point. We are talking about Star Trek fans here. Do you really consider it outside the realm of possibility that the TPTB said to themselves, "Nah, lets just kill some random name. I really don't want to deal with the fanbase if we kill some name character they hold dear." I really wouldn't have cared if they had killed Rand or Riley or even Sulu but it is obviously a road they didn't want to go down. The reasons seem pretty obvious to me.
I don't think it's a valid point... at all. Rick Berman/Michael Piller don't strike me as people to strike a creative decision based on potential "fan outrage". Berman allowed the Enterprise-D to be pissed on by a twenty-year old Bird of Prey and Kirk to be crushed by a bridge.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:31 PM   #54
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Use of Time wrote: View Post

Yes but it seems kinda like a valid point. We are talking about Star Trek fans here. Do you really consider it outside the realm of possibility that the TPTB said to themselves, "Nah, lets just kill some random name. I really don't want to deal with the fanbase if we kill some name character they hold dear." I really wouldn't have cared if they had killed Rand or Riley or even Sulu but it is obviously a road they didn't want to go down. The reasons seem pretty obvious to me.
I don't think it's a valid point... at all. Rick Berman/Michael Piller don't strike me as people to strike a creative decision based on potential "fan outrage". Berman allowed the Enterprise-D to be pissed on by a twenty-year old Bird of Prey and Kirk to be crushed by a bridge.
I don't think they gave it much thought at all to be honest. I don't think they would have killed someone just to tickle their fancy. They had Jimmy Doohan and decided to focus the episode on him. The example you gave about the Ent-D was at least fueling the storyline of Star Trek Generations. The whole "Franklin vs Known Character" thing isn't even remotely comparable because it pretty much had no bearing on the story.
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Old January 1 2014, 12:50 AM   #55
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
In the world of Trek, having someone that you're barely acquainted with just suddenly die on you seems to be part of the job and life, almost to the point where our heroes sometimes appear to be desensitized and the writers rarely show the Captain acknowledging their deaths procedurally (ie writing a letter to their relatives, hosting a memorial, etc). Poor Matt Franklin was just another in Starfleet's long death tally, but as was mentioned before, the episode is about Scotty.
Good Idea!!!
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Old January 2 2014, 02:56 PM   #56
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

ON further reflection....wouldn't it have been great if Scotty's sessions with Troi went nowhere and he turned to Guinan for counselling instead? Now THAT's a missed opportunity!
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Old January 2 2014, 03:10 PM   #57
F. King Daniel
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

I'm with Allyn, the Dyson Sphere is one of the most amazing things ever, and they wasted it on a B-plot. You could do an entire series exploring that thing.
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Old January 2 2014, 03:19 PM   #58
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Probably more to do with having to pay royalties to a writer for using a previously created character.
No royalties would be owed for merely name-dropping a known character, only if that character was being portrayed in the episode.

As we said, to kill off Rand, Chapel, Chekov, Sulu, Uhura, or even Garrovick, Lesley, Lemli or Romaine, in an offscreen incident, with no emotional pay-off, would be extremely upsetting to fans of that character, and to the actor who played him/her. Spock, Kirk, Sarek, Jadzia, Data and Tucker were all killed off onscreen, and in episodes that focused on them.
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Old January 2 2014, 03:23 PM   #59
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

MikeH92467 wrote: View Post
ON further reflection....wouldn't it have been great if Scotty's sessions with Troi went nowhere and he turned to Guinan for counselling instead? Now THAT's a missed opportunity!
Whoopi Goldberg was unavailable. Hence the bar was unattended by her when Scotty visited and Data got the funny "It's green" line.

Any time Whoopi was available, Troi's lines would end up being repurposed for Guinan to say in her inimitable style.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Seriously, they obviously offed Amanda in "Sarek" and I don't remember any "fan outrage" and I'd say the character is a bit more important than a Rand or Riley.
But the fans had often speculated that Sarek would outlive Amanda. There were even Star Trek novels, "The Vulcan Academy Murders" and "The IDIC Epidemic" that explored this - and Amanda's life was extended somewhat in a medical procedure.

Some hardcore fans believe everything should be catered to them and if it isn't, then it's being done to piss them off.
Scripts are about emotional payoffs. There's no payoff in killing a regular or known character the way Matt Franklin was killed. There was emotional payoff with the offscreen death of Amanda. We see Sarek's life after he had to go on without her.

True, it's not as if Berman and Pillar avoided fan outrage, but they were both often quoted about how TV scripts are written, and how the emotional payoffs must be set up and earned. The story always comes first. But killing off a known character in a throwaway line that never gets developed is not good TV drama. And if it did get developed, then the Scotty episode is no longer about Scotty.

I remember chatting to TV's Batgirl, Yvonne Craig, and how devastated she was when the comics version of Batgirl was shot through the spine, paralysed, stripped naked and photographed by The Joker, thus ending the character's career as Batgirl. Not Yvonne Craig's incarnation, but the incident did seemingly affect how often Yvonne Craig got convention work in the years afterwards.

Having met Grace Lee Whitney, Majel Barrett, Walter Koenig and George Takei, I know that they, and their fans, would have been just as devastated by their character getting killed off in such an offhanded manner, and to be removed from the possibility of future work.
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Last edited by Therin of Andor; January 2 2014 at 03:42 PM. Reason: more
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Old January 3 2014, 11:14 AM   #60
Robert Comsol
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The Dyson Sphere is one of the most amazing things ever, and they wasted it on a B-plot. You could do an entire series exploring that thing.
I concur. At least they could have thrown in a few lines how big that thing actually is (like using the surface of Earth as a reference) and wonder where its inhabitants went to after it became uninhabitable. Definitely one of the greater Star Trek mysteries.

Bob
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