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Old May 24 2014, 04:24 PM   #1
JirinPanthosa
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Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

At what point is Martok replaced by a changeling? Martok seems far less reasonable a person in this episode than in the later seasons after he's rescued, but he also opens the conversation by cutting his hand (Which I'm sure he could have faked the way Sisko's father suggested).

At this point had he already been replaced, or did his stay in Dominion prison end up making him more cooperative later on?
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Old May 24 2014, 04:55 PM   #2
Leto_II
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Yup -- the Dominion abduction took place at some point during the third season of DS9 (in 2371), with "The Way of the Warrior" taking place in January, 2372. So that was indeed a Changeling in Sisko's office during that episode.

(And yup -- there was very definitely some blood-test trickery taking place there, as well. Joseph Sisko was on the right track the whole time.)
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Old May 25 2014, 08:00 PM   #3
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

All signs point to the Martok of "Way of the Warrior" being a changeling despite the blood test. The best evidence of that is Worf having picked a fight with Martok's son and basically humiliated him in public. Martok would certainly remember something like that, which the real Martok doesn't seem to.
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Old May 25 2014, 08:16 PM   #4
Timo
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Indeed, the blood test is the final nail in the coffin. Obviously, a Changeling would very dramatically propose a test that is completely ineffective in identifying a Changeling!

It's an attractive proposal as such. Solids can't tell it's bogus, and even Odo is just a kid and can't tell better, and the Changeling knows all that. But if he didn't offer this bogus test, Starfleet might come up with something effective; getting the Feds and the Klingons to share this useless method buys time for the Founder infiltrators.

(Joe Sisko's idea about hiding real blood inside a Changeling is workable, I guess. But it also seems that adult Changelings can easily separate small pieces of themselves and have them retain their shape basically forever. Laas in "Chimera" already did a lot of more demanding things! So the blood test would in fact allow the Founders to infiltrate laboratories all across the Federation, one drop at a time. )

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Old May 25 2014, 08:50 PM   #5
Sran
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
At what point is Martok replaced by a changeling? Martok seems far less reasonable a person in this episode than in the later seasons after he's rescued, but he also opens the conversation by cutting his hand (Which I'm sure he could have faked the way Sisko's father suggested).

At this point had he already been replaced, or did his stay in Dominion prison end up making him more cooperative later on?
There's dialogue in "Apocalypse Rising" stating that Martok had already been replaced. Plus, there's the fact that when Worf encounters the real Martok at the prison camp, Martok says, "Yes, I've heard of you," in response to Worf introducing himself. Surely he'd remember Worf after what happened the previous year.

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Old May 25 2014, 09:03 PM   #6
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Agreed, it's implied that Martok was replaced at some point prior to "Way of the Warrior"
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Old May 25 2014, 09:40 PM   #7
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Martok's whole MO in "Way of the Warrior" is to goad Gowron into invading Cardassia, so it seems clear that this Martok is a changeling.
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Old May 26 2014, 11:45 PM   #8
milquetoast
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Leto_II wrote: View Post
And yup -- there was very definitely some blood-test trickery taking place there, as well. Joseph Sisko was on the right track the whole time.
- The whole blood test thing was an awesome idea! I love how every time it was brought up to prove that you were not a changeling was some utter bullshit. And that it was usually always brought up by a changeling.

Also as I recall the Bashir Changeling in The Adversary was the one to suggest the blood test in that instance. I think for the first time. So it seemed to me that it was all designed to make the federation feel safe when really they weren't.
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Old May 27 2014, 06:19 PM   #9
lvsxy808
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Sran wrote: View Post
Plus, there's the fact that when Worf encounters the real Martok at the prison camp, Martok says, "Yes, I've heard of you," in response to Worf introducing himself. Surely he'd remember Worf after what happened the previous year.
MacLeod wrote: View Post
Agreed, it's implied that Martok was replaced at some point prior to "Way of the Warrior"
Not just implied, but basically said outright. Martok says that he was replaced two years ago in "In Purgatory's Shadow," which would place the exchange in mid-season 3.

Which leads to a possible timeline consistency error. Martok says that he has heard of Worf, which is likely because Worf is comparatively famous in KDF circles as the only Klingon warrior in Starfleet. But it is because of Worf's presence that Martok recognises that Garak must be Garak. Which means he knows that Garak and Worf both live together on DS9, for him to make that association.

The problem there is that both Martok and Tain came to that Dominion prison camp in season 3 - before Worf ever moved to DS9. So how would either of them know Worf was there, to make the connection to Garak? I doubt anyone from the Dominion was interested in keeping their prisoners up to date with current political or personnel movements in the Alpha/Beta quadrants. And Tain may be an intelligence genius but even he can't know things before they happen.

The only explanation is that other Klingons or Cardassians got captured and dropped into the prison after Martok and Tain did, and knew about it, and told them. We never heard about any Klingons being captured by the Dominion, but that doesn't mean they weren't. Also, Ikat'ika implies he hasn't had any other Klingons as prisoners, except for Martok, when he welcomes Worf there. But I guess maybe the other Klingons had already been killed by Jem'Hadar before Worf arrived. We do definitely see other Cardassians at the prison, but I kind of assumed they were from the Tal Shiar / Obsidian Order fleet, which means they've been there as long as Tain has.

So - possible continuity error. (Also, four paragraphs of analysis teased out of one tiny throwaway line. Yikes.)

Colonel Lovok in the Romulan Tal Shiar ("The Die Is Cast"), Ambassador Krajensky in the Federation Diplomatic Corps ("The Adversary"), and General Martok in the Klingon Defense Force ("Way of the Warrior"). The timeline adds up that they all got into place about the same time. Less than six months after first official contact in "The Jem'Hadar," the Dominion has got high-level agents replaced with changeling infiltrators in three out of the four major galactic powers in the A/B quadrants, and within twelve months has managed to fuck shit up inside all three. By the end of "Way of the Warrior", all four powers are screwed, because of changeling infiltration. That's some damned efficient work by the Dominion, long before open warfare ever broke out.

(It does make one wonder why we never heard about anyone in the Cardassian power structure being replaced by a changeling infiltrator. Maybe they did and we just never found out. It could be that they had someone in place helping to set up the alliance that Dukat later finalised. Or, as someone somewhere else suggested, it may be that the Cardassian infiltrator ironically got killed when the Klingons invaded.)

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Old May 28 2014, 12:23 PM   #10
Timo
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

It could also be that the Klingon suspicions about Founders in Cardassian upper echelons were perfectly true, and once Sisko gave the Founders among the Detapa refugees the all-clear by making the ineffective blood test, these infiltrators moved on to control that segment of the Cardassian society that wasn't being ruled by Dukat or repressed by the Klingons.

As for anything relating to "In Purgatory's Shadow"/"By Inferno's Light", the amazing escape of our heroes might be proof enough that one or more among them were in fact Founder infiltrators. Both Garak and Bashir began undermining the Alpha Axis war effort after their return from captivity, Martok spread discontent and defeatism in the Klingon Defense Force, and Worf ultimately murdered one of the major Alpha leaders! "Martok" identifying "Garak" and "Worf" could all be part of a bigger plan of obfuscation, then.

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Old May 28 2014, 01:01 PM   #11
Tosk
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
But it is because of Worf's presence that Martok recognises that Garak must be Garak. Which means he knows that Garak and Worf both live together on DS9, for him to make that association.

The problem there is that both Martok and Tain came to that Dominion prison camp in season 3 - before Worf ever moved to DS9. So how would either of them know Worf was there, to make the connection to Garak? I doubt anyone from the Dominion was interested in keeping their prisoners up to date with current political or personnel movements in the Alpha/Beta quadrants. And Tain may be an intelligence genius but even he can't know things before they happen..
That's all solved easily...Bashir told him.
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Old May 28 2014, 08:26 PM   #12
Worf'sParmach
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Did they plan for Martok to have been a Changeling from the beginning or was that a retcon on the part of the writers?
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Old May 28 2014, 08:31 PM   #13
MacLeod
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

I'm going with retcon, they were probably pleased with Hertzler performance in WOTW and thought of a way to bring him back.
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Old May 29 2014, 03:10 AM   #14
lvsxy808
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Tosk wrote: View Post
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
But it is because of Worf's presence that Martok recognises that Garak must be Garak. Which means he knows that Garak and Worf both live together on DS9, for him to make that association.

The problem there is that both Martok and Tain came to that Dominion prison camp in season 3 - before Worf ever moved to DS9. So how would either of them know Worf was there, to make the connection to Garak? I doubt anyone from the Dominion was interested in keeping their prisoners up to date with current political or personnel movements in the Alpha/Beta quadrants. And Tain may be an intelligence genius but even he can't know things before they happen..
That's all solved easily...Bashir told him.
Wow. That's...

*bangs head against wall in humiliation*

.
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Old May 30 2014, 01:21 AM   #15
jimbotron
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Re: Is Martok a changeling in Way of the Warrior?

Some other odd things to think about with the Changeling replacement thing:

1) Somehow the Changeling Martok fooled the real Martok's son and wife, Drex and Sirella, for months. Also, the fake Martok is shown to either strictly follow Klingon code (killing the captain who refused to fire on the Defiant), but also acting oblivious to Klingon code which ultimately exposed him as a fake.

2) Later on in season 5, Changeling Bashir is the one who performs the surgery on Sisko in Rapture, and who delivers Kirayoshi O'Brien and supervises the infant Changeling in The Begotten. Rapture is first episode with the First Contact-style uniforms, and the real Bashir was still wearing the original DS9 uniform.

Worf'sParmach wrote: View Post
Did they plan for Martok to have been a Changeling from the beginning or was that a retcon on the part of the writers?
Probably a retcon, because let's face it, nothing is ever planned that far in advance. If writers say it was, it's usually a lie. The WATW Martok was a jerk, but Hertzler makes a good Klingon, so it provided a nice opportunity to reboot the character and retain him as a semi-regular.

It reminds me of Enterprise, and the retcon of sorts in season 4 that had to change the ENT-era Vulcans from the pricks they were to Vulcans we knew.

Last edited by jimbotron; May 30 2014 at 01:35 AM.
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