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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: Grade "The Time Of The Doctor"
Geronimo! 64 30.48%
Fish Fingers and Custard 84 40.00%
Average 36 17.14%
Not Good 21 10.00%
Beans are evil. Bad bad beans! | 5 2.38%
Voters: 210. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 23 2014, 03:27 PM   #436
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

^ Clearly they founded that colony to be Christmas all the time.

Luddite colonists with a pine tree fetish.
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Old January 23 2014, 03:48 PM   #437
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
How are they good points? Many of them are pointless questions that have nothing to do with the story. How did the Papal Mainframe shield the planet?
Without going point by point, it *was* hokey how the Papal Mainframe could hold back the combined evil forces of the universre for centuries.

That took me right out of the story. If have too many unbelievable things in a story, it doesn't work. Generally just one is the rule.

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Old January 23 2014, 04:02 PM   #438
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

EnderAKH wrote: View Post
Despite the fact that this was never written as his last regeneration prior to this episode, with at least 4 different episodes contradicting that fact, what I want to know is this: why did the town/planet not evolve? He is there anywhere from 600-900 years. Think about the Earth in the year 1400 versus now. Why did they seem to be at a technological stand still? I would think being in a near constant state of attack would accelerate their desire to build better defenses, not retard it.
I've come to the idea that Trenzalore is what it appears to be -- the town inside a snowglobe. That the Doctor spent nine centuries (from his perspective) inside a snowglobe, protecting a town that could never, ever change, from what evils lurk beyond the glass.
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Old January 23 2014, 04:17 PM   #439
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
How are they good points? Many of them are pointless questions that have nothing to do with the story. How did the Papal Mainframe shield the planet?
Without going point by point, it *was* hokey how the Papal Mainframe could hold back the combined evil forces of the universre for centuries.
becuase 1) at first they were afraid of what was down there before they knew it was the Timelords

2) After they found out all the Doctor had to do to bring them back was say his name so they were kind of in a stalemate.
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Old January 23 2014, 05:16 PM   #440
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
EnderAKH wrote: View Post
Despite the fact that this was never written as his last regeneration prior to this episode, with at least 4 different episodes contradicting that fact, what I want to know is this: why did the town/planet not evolve? He is there anywhere from 600-900 years. Think about the Earth in the year 1400 versus now. Why did they seem to be at a technological stand still? I would think being in a near constant state of attack would accelerate their desire to build better defenses, not retard it.
I've come to the idea that Trenzalore is what it appears to be -- the town inside a snowglobe. That the Doctor spent nine centuries (from his perspective) inside a snowglobe, protecting a town that could never, ever change, from what evils lurk beyond the glass.
That's pretty nicely poetic, and I can get on board with that Moffatt-esque sentiment. Moreover, these guys could be the equivalent of those Bringloidi colonists from the TNG episode "Up the Long Ladder", who decided to reject post-19th century technology and live forever on a planet as a bunch of drunken Irish.

In other words, they're deliberate Amish types, choosing to live in a perpetual state of technology and culture because they wanted to. They certainly have and use a certain level of technology, but overall they're happy living as simple folk in a run-down old village for eternity. I highly doubt that would be realistically sustainable for 300-900 years, but what the hell, it's science fiction.

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Old January 23 2014, 05:54 PM   #441
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
How are they good points? Many of them are pointless questions that have nothing to do with the story. How did the Papal Mainframe shield the planet?
Without going point by point, it *was* hokey how the Papal Mainframe could hold back the combined evil forces of the universre for centuries.
becuase 1) at first they were afraid of what was down there before they knew it was the Timelords

2) After they found out all the Doctor had to do to bring them back was say his name so they were kind of in a stalemate.
What was shown was that they kept trying for centuries.

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Old January 23 2014, 10:49 PM   #442
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
The line about the previous encounters with the Silence/Silents being a rogue sect was all the explanation that was needed in the context of this story. Why do people want everything spelled out? Leaving it ambiguous leaves room for (1) us to use our imaginations to fill in the blanks, and (2) future stories that haven't been written yet to expand upon it.
It was a horrible hand wave. It sorta didn't explain why the Silents needed to take over the entire Earth.



I'm really sick of hearing people bitch about this episode, which was GREAT and immensely satisfying, and whose plot hole problems are certainly no greater than the vast majority of Who stories.
I guess you could stop reading the internet, because, I'm sorry, this episode was EXTREMELY disappointing. And not satisfying for me at all. It was a lot of telling. Not a lot of showing. And the Doctor was... not The Doctor in this story. He was a passive character. In his own finale. He didn't try and find any solution other than just stay put and keep doing the same thing for 900 years. He gave up. That's not the Doctor.



EnderAKH wrote: View Post
Despite the fact that this was never written as his last regeneration prior to this episode, with at least 4 different episodes contradicting that fact, what I want to know is this: why did the town/planet not evolve? He is there anywhere from 600-900 years. Think about the Earth in the year 1400 versus now. Why did they seem to be at a technological stand still? I would think being in a near constant state of attack would accelerate their desire to build better defenses, not retard it.
Well, that wasn't a problem for me. They aren't a country with a lot of resources, but a small town under near constant attack. And then smartest guy in the town is spending his time fixing toys. So... yeah... they were fucked.
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Old January 24 2014, 03:05 AM   #443
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
It was a horrible hand wave. It sorta didn't explain why the Silents needed to take over the entire Earth.
And why would that need any more explanation than it had already gotten long before this? They were trying to create a fixed point in time, which is not an easy thing to do and requires all kinds of convoluted maneuverings to which we are not privy and probably could never understand. Basically, it's a "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" thing and that's all we need to know. That none of this was rehashed here is a GOOD thing, because that story was already done and this was a new one.

Handwaving is a fundamental part of storytelling in Doctor Who. It has been since the beginning. There have been times when nearly every episode began with a handwave to dispel the last scene of the previous one. This flippant fickleness is part of the fun and the endearing charm of the show. The writing is very aware of itself, its conceits and its conventions. If this bothers you...I guess you could stop watching the show, because, I'm sorry, you will continue to be extremely disappointed by it.

I guess you could stop reading the internet, because, I'm sorry, this episode was EXTREMELY disappointing. And not satisfying for me at all. It was a lot of telling. Not a lot of showing. And the Doctor was... not The Doctor in this story. He was a passive character. In his own finale. He didn't try and find any solution other than just stay put and keep doing the same thing for 900 years. He gave up. That's not the Doctor.
He didn't give up. He decided to devote the rest of his last remaining life to protect a town of innocents from being obliterated by a situation he himself unwittingly created in the first place. (And by extension, the rest of the universe, which surely would be devastated should the Time War begin anew.) It's called character development. The Doctor had spent all his lives running, tricking his way out of predicaments, and finally stopped and accepted this responsibility when faced with it. He was absolutely the Doctor, the "good man."

I think what needed to be shown was, and what needed to be told was. Let's remember that they only had one hour to do this story in. Can't show or tell everything, and again, why would you want them to anyway?

EnderAKH wrote: View Post
...the fact that this was never written as his last regeneration prior to this episode, with at least 4 different episodes contradicting that fact...
People were speculating this was actually his last life for some time before this episode. In the gap between the 50th anniversary and it, I did a marathon of all Matt Smith's episodes to see if anything precluded this interpretation. Nothing did. To my recollection, for every occasion when the idea of regeneration was raised, there is a fairly straightforward reason why it is not a contradiction:

"The Impossible Astronaut" - it wasn't really the Doctor, it was the Tesselecta putting on a show

"Let's Kill Hitler" - "regeneration disabled" (this phrase accurately describes the condition of having exhausted one's regenerations)

"The Angels Take Manhattan" - the small amount of energy he used to heal River's wrist can be presumed to be left over from when River gave the remainder of her own regeneration energy to heal him in "Let's Kill Hitler"; it may very well have been all that was left and if there was any more he could easily have used that up somewhere along the line at Trenzalore or elsewhere

"Nightmare In Silver" - it's a bluff

Those are the only ones I remember; are there any more?

Oh, and after refreshing my memory I found the answer to my own pedantic complaint about the holographic clothes: the "hologram shells" had "heat loss filters." Simple enough.
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Last edited by The Mighty Monkey of Mim; January 24 2014 at 03:39 AM.
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Old January 24 2014, 05:51 AM   #444
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

The Mighty Monkey of Mim wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
It was a horrible hand wave. It sorta didn't explain why the Silents needed to take over the entire Earth.
And why would that need any more explanation than it had already gotten long before this?
Because it was incredibly unsatisfactory. It didn't really explain their plan. If there plan was to kill the Doctor before he got to Trenzalore, why did they need to take over the Earth?


They were trying to create a fixed point in time, which is not an easy thing to do and requires all kinds of convoluted maneuverings to which we are not privy and probably could never understand.
Ok. Sure.


Basically, it's a "wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey" thing and that's all we need to know.
BS. Timey-wimey wasn't meant, nor should be, an excuse for poor story telling.


That none of this was rehashed here is a GOOD thing, because that story was already done and this was a new one.
You can't have it both ways. You said upthread that it was left vague so they could tell future stories, now, you're saying that the story was done.

And the story WASN'T done. We didn't know who blew up the Tardis, or why. The ending of that story was that one line.


Handwaving is a fundamental part of storytelling in Doctor Who.
No. No, it's not.


It has been since the beginning. There have been times when nearly every episode began with a handwave to dispel the last scene of the previous one. This flippant fickleness is part of the fun and the endearing charm of the show. The writing is very aware of itself, its conceits and its conventions. If this bothers you...I guess you could stop watching the show, because, I'm sorry, you will continue to be extremely disappointed by it.
Then explain why I have enjoyed Doctor Who for years and years? Oh, that's because for the most part they don't rely on handwaving. They actually tell a story dramatically.


I guess you could stop reading the internet, because, I'm sorry, this episode was EXTREMELY disappointing. And not satisfying for me at all. It was a lot of telling. Not a lot of showing. And the Doctor was... not The Doctor in this story. He was a passive character. In his own finale. He didn't try and find any solution other than just stay put and keep doing the same thing for 900 years. He gave up. That's not the Doctor.
He didn't give up. He decided to devote the rest of his last remaining life to protect a town of innocents from being obliterated by a situation he himself unwittingly created in the first place.
He gave up because he didn't try and find a solution to the problem. By just staying there and doing nothing, the town was under constant attack for 900 years... that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would the Doctor want those people to live like that? Now, if we saw him in the story trying to find other solutions, rather than JUST defending the city, that would be the Doctor I know.


(And by extension, the rest of the universe, which surely would be devastated should the Time War begin anew.) It's called character development.
Please lecture me some more... tell me of this character... development...


The Doctor had spent all his lives running, tricking his way out of predicaments, and finally stopped and accepted this responsibility when faced with it. He was absolutely the Doctor, the "good man."
I'm sorry, "tricking" his way out of predicaments? He didn't trick his way out... he fucking solved problems. He maybe a trickster character, but he didn't trick his way out of predicaments. He helped people, he found a way to save lives. He found a way when no one else could. You know, like in the Day of The Doctor.


I think what needed to be shown was, and what needed to be told was. Let's remember that they only had one hour to do this story in. Can't show or tell everything, and again, why would you want them to anyway?
So, they had an hour... it's called selective editing. We didn't need that moment with the Angels, for example. Not EVERYTHING needed to be thrown in like a stew.

And, you'll have to link where I said I wanted everything shown or told. I wanted satisfying answers, I wanted a satisfying story. I got a lot of handwaving and voice over.
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Old January 24 2014, 08:42 AM   #445
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

Ok, I wasn't really attempting to lecture you, and shouldn't have given in to the temptation to try to snarkily turn your words around on you. It seems we have rather different opinions about what makes for a satisfying DW adventure. I do not care what the details of the Kovarian sect's plan(s) were, and this remaining shrouded in a bit of mystery is no annoyance. For me knowing their motivation is sufficient.

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
You can't have it both ways. You said upthread that it was left vague so they could tell future stories, now, you're saying that the story was done.
What I said was that it being left vague without all the blanks filled in is not a negative thing, because it allows each of us to use our imaginations to fill them in to whatever degree we so desire AND at the same time leaves open possibilities for future stories.

We didn't know who blew up the Tardis, or why.
We now know generally who (the Kovarian sect) and essentially why (to try to stop the Doctor reaching Trenzalore). Anything more might be interesting, or it might not, but it isn't necessary or directly relevant to this story. The broad strokes are there, it's only details that are missing.

They actually tell a story dramatically.
I found "Time Of The Doctor" to be a very dramatically satisfying ending for Matt Smith. You're not wrong for feeling otherwise, but the point is, not everyone was disappointed with it or thought its storytelling was poor.

By just staying there and doing nothing, the town was under constant attack for 900 years... that sounds HORRIBLE. Why would the Doctor want those people to live like that? Now, if we saw him in the story trying to find other solutions, rather than JUST defending the city, that would be the Doctor I know.
What other options were open to him? If he answered the Time Lords, the planet would burn. If he left, the planet would burn. He didn't have the TARDIS. Tasha and the Church helped him as much as they could for as long as they could, but that wasn't enough to save him from his eventual fate. What exactly could he do besides what he did? He was making the best of an impossible situation in true Doctor style.

And you don't think that in the hundreds of years he was there, he tried to think of other solutions? I take it as a given that he had tried, and that there weren't any. I think the whole point of the story was to show how the 11th Doctor came to his end (and ultimately introduce us to the 12th) and that is why a lot of story time was not devoted to delaying this with scenes of the Doctor trying a bunch of things and them not working. I don't need to be shown that, I can imagine it. The upshot is he fought until didn't have any clever plans or tricks or strength left in him, and was able to accept it because he was saving lives, which is not the same as "giving up."

I'm sure there will be plenty of other media that expounds upon what happened in the centuries he spent on Trenzalore, but the episode (rightly IMO) is really only focused on the beginning and the end of it.
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Old January 24 2014, 02:14 PM   #446
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

They explained the Kovarian Sect's plan in The Impossible Astronaut already.
They needed a space suit for River to kill the Doctor with. They don't make stuff themselves.
For some reason they rather whisper into mankind's ear for millennia to direct their technological development to the point where they got one.
Why they do it this way? They are aliens, who knows, they don't think like hhumans.
The only bit missing was their motivation, which was explained here.
Granted exposition is always less satisfying than showing that stuff.
But I assume getting the actress back for a 5 second scene showing her falling out with Tasha might have been to expensive...
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Old January 24 2014, 06:28 PM   #447
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

While I do like the idea of the Doctor sticking around for hundreds of years to defend a planet, I have to agree that it DOES seem highly unlikely that he wouldn't have found some other better or simpler solution in all that time. Especially after all the other seemingly impossible situations we've seen the Doctor wiggle himself out of (like, say, getting locked in an inescapable Pandorica, or avoiding his fixed-in-time death, or preventing the time-locked destruction of Gallifrey).

He may not have had access to his TARDIS, but with all the other aliens beaming up and down from the planet he surely could have used one of their ships, or found some way to seal the crack, or done... something.
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Old January 24 2014, 06:43 PM   #448
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

It was vastly disappointing and it overturned events in The Name Of The Doctor and yet again it was Clara who really saved the day in the end. And I hope that once the Doctor leaves the planet that the Daleks don't destroy it out of spite.
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Old January 24 2014, 08:14 PM   #449
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Re: The Time Of The Doctor (Grading/Discussion)(SPOILERS!)

Why would he want to seal the crack. First, it was the only thing keeping the bad guys at bay. Second, it was a passage to Gallifrey and (eventually, probably) their way back, something the Doctor does want, but not under these conditions.
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Old January 24 2014, 08:15 PM   #450
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DWF wrote: View Post
It was vastly disappointing and it overturned events in The Name Of The Doctor and yet again it was Clara who really saved the day in the end. And I hope that once the Doctor leaves the planet that the Daleks don't destroy it out of spite.
I don't know if you got an edited version, but the one I saw, the Doctor destroyed all the Daleks in orbit around Trenzalore
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