RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,318
Posts: 5,352,433
Members: 24,622
Currently online: 679
Newest member: groucho900

TrekToday headlines

Drexler TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Jul 26

Retro Review: His Way
By: Michelle on Jul 26

MicroWarriors Releases Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Ships Of The Line Design Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Next Weekend: Shore Leave 36!
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

True Trek History To Be Penned
By: T'Bonz on Jul 25

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Peaceable Kingdoms.
Outstanding 18 20.69%
Above Average 36 41.38%
Average 29 33.33%
Below Average 3 3.45%
Poor 1 1.15%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 15 2014, 05:40 PM   #121
Mimi
Lieutenant Commander
 
Mimi's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I agree. The Fall had some problems, but I think it leaves the universe off at a good point. Also gives us the perfect launching point for more DS9 books, which is definitely exciting.
Mimi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 05:51 PM   #122
hbquikcomjamesl
Commander
 
hbquikcomjamesl's Avatar
 
Location: Orange County, CA
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Strangest thing.

Not sure if it was from being about halfway through TF:PK before I went to sleep last night, or from the current state of U.S. politics, but I had a weird dream last night about being in a building, with somebody, in a desperate bid to hold onto political power, using what appeared to be a World War II-vintage machine gun, with a honking long barrel, to systematically destroy that building and everything in it (with the section I and a few others were in apparently next in line).

Then I got up this morning, and read the
hbquikcomjamesl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 06:51 PM   #123
Masiral
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Scout101 wrote: View Post
So, now that we've wrapped up the 5 book series, can we agree R&D was a failure? Only people supporting it were the 'wait and see how it pays off in the rest of the series' folks, and now that we got there: it didn't. It was maybe a setup for new DS9 books in the future, but really didn't do much for the Fall arc, and definitely didn't stand alone.
I think some people have a different definition of standalone than I do, because to me, while each of the books had a storyline that was resolved, none of them were really "standalone". Revelation and Dust set up new DS9 stories, Crimson Shadow was the continuation of the postwar Cardassia arc, Ceremony of Losses was the conclusion of the Andorian crisis arc, The Poisoned Chalice directly followed up on Dax and Bashir's story from CoL, and Peaceable Kingdoms directly followed up on Riker's story from PC.

And I don't think Revelation and Dust was a failure. It told a good story, and set up the rest of The Fall and a new DS9 story quite nicely. Maybe other people expected more from it, but I didn't really have any problems with it.
Masiral is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 07:00 PM   #124
Mage
Commodore
 
Mage's Avatar
 
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Scout101 wrote: View Post
So, now that we've wrapped up the 5 book series, can we agree R&D was a failure?

Nope, sorry. Can't agree. Was it the best of The Fall? No. Was it DRGIII's best novel ever. No. But to me, personally, was it a good read? Yes.

Do others have a different opinion? Probably, and that's cool. But that doesn't mean we should all agree it was a failure.
__________________
Niner. Lurker. Browncoat.
Mage is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 08:30 PM   #125
Scout101
Admiral
 
Scout101's Avatar
 
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

The refrain when it came out was that we needed to wait until the end of the 5 book series, that it was just setting things up.

The rest of the stories, while being part of the arc, had their own arc within the book, told a story as part of the whole. R&D was a mess. Didn't have an arc, just a bunch of stuff that happened and went unresolved (in micro or macro level).

Other than establishing that Bacco was dead, what did R&D do that an extra 20 pages on Crimson Shadow couldn't have? may be some future payoff in another DS9 book, but nothing that came to play in The Fall.

Out of the 5 books, that's still the one where I just didn't feel like I got my money's worth. Wasn't really a story, just some stuff that happened, was unrelated to each other, and not picked up in the rest of the series...

-Crimson Shadow moved the Cardassian story forward and set up new storylines there, but also told a story on its own and had a resolution. Story was about Garak and Cardassia.

-Ceremony of Losses resolved the Andorian crisis while setting up Bashir/Section31 stuff, and stuff with Ishan. Story was about Bashir.

-Poisoned Chalice was a little more open, but worked Titan and the political angles, while still having a self-contained story/mission with Tuvok and company. Story was about Tuvok, with some Riker stuff.

-Peacable Kingdoms was probably 2nd weakest, but went to tie up loose ends and set up the new goals of the Federation, back to exploring, etc. Still managed a contained story with Crusher that was resolved.

By contrast, R&D:
-described the new DS9
-Replayed the DS9 Pilot episode for a while
-gave some Kira/ancient Bajoran stuff, but didn't resolve it any (just established the situation), and finished with an odd cliff-hanger that was somehow not mentioned by anyone in the rest of the series
-Set up a mission for Odo, but only in passing, hasn't started
-Killed Bacco, but without much buildup, and then a quick/poor investigation.

Where was the narrative that went through it? What was started and resolved? All open-ended, without any contained mini-arc or story to make it feel like a book on its own. Most of this could have been dropped, or moved to the next DS9 book that intends to deal with it, and Bacco would have made just as much sense as the first 2 chapters of Crimson Shadow. Really can't find the story that needed to be told in this book, a reason for it to exist on its own...
__________________
Perhaps, if I am very lucky, the feeble efforts of my lifetime will someday be noticed and maybe, in some small way, they will be acknowledged as the greatest works of genius ever created by man. ~Jack Handey
STO: @JScout33
Scout101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 08:31 PM   #126
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: I am here. You are here too. Yes.
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

zarkon wrote: View Post
garak is the grand high spoon.


I could see that being an actual term used in Bajoran taverns.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 08:45 PM   #127
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Masiral wrote: View Post
And I don't think Revelation and Dust was a failure. It told a good story, and set up the rest of The Fall and a new DS9 story quite nicely. Maybe other people expected more from it, but I didn't really have any problems with it.
Agreed. I think the events of R&D will make much more sense once future novels have been written, as it seemed to be laying the groundwork for a new series of DS9 books.



I suspect some of these issues will be tackled in the Section 31 novel due out later this year, but we'll have to see.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 09:19 PM   #128
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Speaking of the Robinson...

Before the wormhole reopened, that ship was being tasked to exploratory operations in the Alpha Quadrant, and I suspect that there's still plenty of space unclaimed by Typhon Pact affiliated-nations to be explored by ships launched from a Bajor Sector home port.

Since the Robinson's being retasked to Gamma Quadrant exploration, who gets the Alpha Quadrant gig they were originally going to have?
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 09:32 PM   #129
kirk55555
Fleet Captain
 
kirk55555's Avatar
 
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

This was a great book. I liked all of The Fall. Its hard to pick a favorite, but its probably The Crimson Shadow. My least favorite is easily The Poisoned Chalice. It wasn't bad, and it had good moments, but I found it to be kind of weak. To be fair, I'm not a huge fan of the Titan books, so I'm sure fans of those books liked it more than I did. I just thought it was ok.

The end of this book was about what I figured it be, although I wish we'd seen some resolution with Bashir. Still, I'm sure we'll get more with him eventually.
kirk55555 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 09:38 PM   #130
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Guaranteed on that Bashir resolution in Disavowed.
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 11:24 PM   #131
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

DEWLine wrote: View Post
Since the Robinson's being retasked to Gamma Quadrant exploration, who gets the Alpha Quadrant gig they were originally going to have?
It looks like Picard's getting that based on his discussion with Akaar and Riker.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 12:50 AM   #132
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Scout101 wrote: View Post
So, now that we've wrapped up the 5 book series, can we agree R&D was a failure?
Nope. I enjoyed it! If Peaceable Kingdoms gets a B- from me, Revelation and Dust gets either a B+ or an A-.

I thought both stories -- Kira's journey with the Prophets, and Bacco's assassination -- were great. I was intrigued by the story of the new DS9 getting up and running; I was on the edge of my seat when Bacco died; and I loved the story of Bajor's past.

It clearly had different creative goals than you set for it while reading it, but I loved it. And as I said in my review of Peaceable Kingdoms -- something having different creative goals than you is not the same thing as it being "bad;" it just means it's not as satisfying to you.

Anyone have a decent explanation for what "fell" in "the Fall"? Not sure I see that part. Lends itself to expecting something epic, but in reality, what changed? Yes, Bacco was assassinated, but after some moustache twirling, we got a reasonable replacement that will carry on her agenda. Really the only thing that 'fell' was Bashir, as far as I can tell.
Bacco fell. Ganar fell. Cardassia First fell. Bashir fell. The Treyisha fell. The "Active" mercenary system fell. Velk fell. Baras fell. Federation militarism fell.

Honestly, as I think of it, it occurs to me that there was a lot more falling in this miniseries than I realized!
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 01:19 AM   #133
DEWLine
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Send a message via AIM to DEWLine Send a message via Yahoo to DEWLine
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sran wrote: View Post
DEWLine wrote: View Post
Since the Robinson's being retasked to Gamma Quadrant exploration, who gets the Alpha Quadrant gig they were originally going to have?
It looks like Picard's getting that based on his discussion with Akaar and Riker.
You might well have a point.
__________________
Yours,

Dwight Williams
Illustrator/Writer

Last edited by DEWLine; January 16 2014 at 01:22 AM. Reason: pulling unnecessary content
DEWLine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 01:39 AM   #134
Sran
Fleet Captain
 
Sran's Avatar
 
Location: The Captain's Table
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post
Honestly, as I think of it, it occurs to me that there was a lot more falling in this miniseries than I realized!
I also think that because so many things fell that there's now the potential for the Federation's traditional ideals and values to rise again, which seems to be what Akaar and Riker are trying for with the launch of so many deep-space assignments.

--Sran
__________________
"Many things seem clever to an imbecile." --Captain Thelin th'Valrass, USS Enterprise-- "The Chimes at Midnight"
Sran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 01:18 PM   #135
Scout101
Admiral
 
Scout101's Avatar
 
Location: Rhode Island, USA
Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Bacco fell. Ganar fell. Cardassia First fell. Bashir fell. The Treyisha fell. The "Active" mercenary system fell. Velk fell. Baras fell. Federation militarism fell.

Honestly, as I think of it, it occurs to me that there was a lot more falling in this miniseries than I realized![/QUOTE]

Eh, feels like a pretty weak explanation. By that reasoning, basically EVERY book or series should be sub-titled "The Fall". Someone fails, dies, is removed from power, or just trips every book. When you call it The Fall, and make it a 5-book series, guess I expected a bigger, more epic 'fall'.

Ganar, Cardassia First, Mercenary system, Velk, Baras, and militarism both rose AND fell in the book, so don't really fit the idea. Should have to have been something that was big before the books started.

Bashir can't 'really' be it, as it was only in one book, 3rd of 5, and not much of the epic 'fall', just finding something to believe in and sacrificing for that cause. Treyisha is pretty firmly in the 'who cares' pile, as we weren't invested in them, so the 'fall' wasn't enough to pin a series on. Plus mostly resolved in the one book, again.

It's really Bacco, I guess, but it's just an unexciting death that it feels like something was missed. True to life, I guess, but just meh. Felt like it needed more build-up, missed opportunities to stop it, whatever. We just wander along with describing DS9 for a while, re-watch Emissary, do some random Kira/pre-Bajoran stuff, then Bacco gets popped making a speach towards the end. Less of a fall than just an End.

Baras had a better fall, in that he was raised up, grew stronger, made mistakes, we saw people working to catch him, eventually got an edge, and pulled it together. Bacco just died. And even then, we finish the series with a similar replacement, so aside from the name, could have just had Bacco have a change of heart and we could have skipped the entire bit. Just weird to call the series The Fall when aside from Bacco and Bashir personally, pretty much everyone/everything was better off than when the series started. And even with Bashir, career is kinda screwed, but since we got the feeling he wasn't enjoying it and was just going through the paces, he may not be as bad off as we think.

Liked most of the series (save book 1), just guess I was expecting/hoping for more here. Will be nice to get out of the political stuff and back out exploring, though, so the change of direction is appreciated. I want more of starships exploring new (or ancient) stuff, less about Typhon Pact diplomats trying to one up each other...
__________________
Perhaps, if I am very lucky, the feeble efforts of my lifetime will someday be noticed and maybe, in some small way, they will be acknowledged as the greatest works of genius ever created by man. ~Jack Handey
STO: @JScout33
Scout101 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.