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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Rate Peaceable Kingdoms.
Outstanding 18 20.69%
Above Average 36 41.38%
Average 29 33.33%
Below Average 3 3.45%
Poor 1 1.15%
Voters: 87. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 16 2014, 02:39 PM   #136
Sci
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Sci wrote:
Bacco fell. Ganar fell. Cardassia First fell. Bashir fell. The Treyisha fell. The "Active" mercenary system fell. Velk fell. Baras fell. Federation militarism fell.

Honestly, as I think of it, it occurs to me that there was a lot more falling in this miniseries than I realized!
Eh, feels like a pretty weak explanation.
It's not an explanation, it's a joke.

But speaking more earnestly, I think it's pretty clear that the title The Fall refers to Bacco's assassination.

By that reasoning, basically EVERY book or series should be sub-titled "The Fall". Someone fails, dies, is removed from power, or just trips every book. When you call it The Fall, and make it a 5-book series, guess I expected a bigger, more epic 'fall'.

Ganar, Cardassia First, Mercenary system, Velk, Baras, and militarism both rose AND fell in the book, so don't really fit the idea. Should have to have been something that was big before the books started.

Bashir can't 'really' be it, as it was only in one book, 3rd of 5, and not much of the epic 'fall', just finding something to believe in and sacrificing for that cause. Treyisha is pretty firmly in the 'who cares' pile, as we weren't invested in them, so the 'fall' wasn't enough to pin a series on. Plus mostly resolved in the one book, again.
You are severely over-analyzing a joke now.

Treyisha is pretty firmly in the 'who cares' pile, as we weren't invested in them, so the 'fall' wasn't enough to pin a series on.
I've been invested in the Andorian arc for ten years, and I was invested in the Treyisha. If anything, I'm just sorry we didn't get more exploration of how right-wing nationalism arose and interacted with the leftist value systems a Federation society espouses.

It's really Bacco, I guess, but it's just an unexciting death that it feels like something was missed.
I don't really know what to tell you. She was an awesome character, and she was assassinated, and they built a five-book miniseries around her assassination. If you just weren't invested, you weren't invested; that says nothing about the quality of the writing.

But I don't really see how a president being assassinated is ever "boring." That sort of thing is the very definition of a huge crisis.

True to life, I guess, but just meh. Felt like it needed more build-up, missed opportunities to stop it, whatever. We just wander along with describing DS9 for a while, re-watch Emissary,
You know, I'm sorry, but I hear that charge again and again and I'm getting tired of it.

1. This was the 20th anniversary of DSN, so it's perfectly appropriate to re-visit that scene from "Emissary" from a new POV.

2. The scene is used in a manner that advances the story of Bajor's relationship with the Prophets, because it suggests that the Prophets themselves are trying to tell Bajor (through Kira) that they are not infallible creatures -- thereby calling into question the foundation of the Bajoran Church's belief system.

3. It lasted for a couple of pages. It was not a long section of the book.

do some random Kira/pre-Bajoran stuff,
There was nothing "random" about the Kira/Bajor arc, and indeed it was the primary story being told in the novel. Dual plotline structures are very common in novels, and I'm always surprised at how many people objected to it in Revelation and Dust.

then Bacco gets popped making a speach towards the end. Less of a fall than just an End.
1. Your complaints are more about the structure of Revelation and Dust than they are about the miniseries in full. You should focus your thesis.

2. "Less a fall than just an End." I have no idea what that means. Bacco fell; that's pretty clear.

Baras had a better fall, in that he was raised up, grew stronger, made mistakes, we saw people working to catch him, eventually got an edge, and pulled it together. Bacco just died.
Bacco's had her ups and downs for going on ten years. It's not like she's a new character.

And what, exactly, do you think an assassination is? A long and drawn out process? That's not reality. When someone's shot to death, they die. It's sudden and it's brutal and it doesn't provide catharsis.

You seem to be upset that Bacco's death didn't give you the catharsis that Baras's arrest gave you. But that would have been a dishonest portrayal of what an assassination is like.

And even then, we finish the series with a similar replacement, so aside from the name, could have just had Bacco
No. As I have said before, there is very little that Bacco and zh'Tarash have in common. The only thing they have in common is their political values. Their ages, their species, their personalities, their family situations, their speech, their sense of humor -- these things are all completely different.

Just weird to call the series The Fall when aside from Bacco and Bashir personally, pretty much everyone/everything was better off than when the series started.
1. You speak as though the assassination of a president is just a minor thing that doesn't affect people. This is a fairly ridiculous assertion. Think about how Kennedy's assassination affected Americans; about how Lincoln's assassination changed the course of Reconstruction; about how the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand provided the spark for the powderkeg that set off World War I; about how Rabin's death killed the Israeli-Palestinian peace process; about how Allende's death destroyed Chilean democracy; about how Habyarimana's assassination led to the Rwandan Genocide; about how Gandhi's assassination affected the history of India, or about how Indira Gandhi's assassination led to thousands of Sikh deaths; or about how Birenda's assassination led to Gyanendra's attempt at a recreating an absolute monarchy in Nepal; about how Bhutto's assassination led to martial law in Pakistan; about how the assassinations of Martin Luther King, Robert F. Kennedy, and Malcolm X affected the black community and the civil rights movement; etc., etc., etc. Assassinations are big deals in and of themselves.

2. Yes, things ended in light rather than in darkness. That's because this is Star Trek, not Battlestar Galactica. Star Trek is at the end of the day about hope overcoming despair, so that's appropriate.

And even with Bashir, career is kinda screwed, but since we got the feeling he wasn't enjoying it and was just going through the paces, he may not be as bad off as we think.
I mean, that's the question for Bashir, isn't it? He's felt lost and directionless, and he's felt like his service in Starfleet required him to violate his oath. Now he's cast off and adrift, and we know he's coming to Section 31. The question is, will he retain his integrity, or will he succumb to his own vanity?

Liked most of the series (save book 1), just guess I was expecting/hoping for more here.
I honestly don't know how you could possibly ask for "more" when you just got a five-book miniseries out of Bacco's assassination. That's an awful lot of books about the consequences of one death.
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Old January 16 2014, 04:21 PM   #137
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Working on my review now, I voted above average. I have loved getting to talk to the authors on Literary Treks to get their insight on the series. I think there is lot going on philosophically, so I have thoroughly enjoyed it. For me it was the highlight of Trek lit in 2013 alongside "From History's Shadow" and "Rise of the Federation".
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Old January 16 2014, 09:43 PM   #138
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I enjoyed this ending to "The Fall" series, but it did not leave me as satisfied as the David Mack "Destiny," or "Cold Equations" series. It left me more excited about future books. I was happy that in the ending they said Starfleet is going to do more exploring. I look forward to some Enterprise-E exploration themed books. I am not as interested in the more political, or cold war themed books.

I was glad Ezri Dax was put back into command. I hope to read more of her and the Aventine and I hope Data makes a return appearance and we find out what he has done since "Cold Equations."

I would like them to return Riker to command of Titan and have some missions with a deep space fleet with the Enterprise, Titan and Aventine.

They said the Enterprise was getting some upgrades. I would like for it and Titan to get quantum slipstream so that they don't seem outdated and they can go on deep space exploration missions with Aventine. They wouldn't all have to be side by side, but in the same region so they can meet up if they find anything or come to the aid of one another.

Who else things an exploration fleet of Enterprise, Titan (With Riker back) and Aventine could be a fun story arch?
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Old January 16 2014, 10:05 PM   #139
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Sci wrote: View Post

Liked most of the series (save book 1), just guess I was expecting/hoping for more here.
I honestly don't know how you could possibly ask for "more" when you just got a five-book miniseries out of Bacco's assassination. That's an awful lot of books about the consequences of one death.
Maybe he meant more as in 'less shit'?
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Old January 17 2014, 02:46 PM   #140
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

BrentMc wrote: View Post
I enjoyed this ending to "The Fall" series, but it did not leave me as satisfied as the David Mack "Destiny," or "Cold Equations" series. It left me more excited about future books. I was happy that in the ending they said Starfleet is going to do more exploring. I look forward to some Enterprise-E exploration themed books. I am not as interested in the more political, or cold war themed books.

I was glad Ezri Dax was put back into command. I hope to read more of her and the Aventine and I hope Data makes a return appearance and we find out what he has done since "Cold Equations."

I would like them to return Riker to command of Titan and have some missions with a deep space fleet with the Enterprise, Titan and Aventine.

They said the Enterprise was getting some upgrades. I would like for it and Titan to get quantum slipstream so that they don't seem outdated and they can go on deep space exploration missions with Aventine. They wouldn't all have to be side by side, but in the same region so they can meet up if they find anything or come to the aid of one another.

Who else things an exploration fleet of Enterprise, Titan (With Riker back) and Aventine could be a fun story arch?
I found it as satisfying as Destiny and more so that Cold Equations, even though I like CE. I am really hoping Riker will be back on Titan, but they did a really good job of making his admiralship very interesting. What I want to see is Sisko have more to do. I really miss that this character that was a god has had so little to do now that he is back in the universe. Personally I always thought he should be an admiral on the new DS9 as his base.
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Old January 17 2014, 10:38 PM   #141
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

I'd put it on a par with The Poisoned Chalice, although it didn't draw me in at quite as frenetic a pace. And I liked just about everything about the ending, including the fact that the "hawk" faction was given believable motivations.
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Old January 18 2014, 02:08 AM   #142
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

BrentMc wrote: View Post
I was glad Ezri Dax was put back into command. I hope to read more of her and the Aventine and I hope Data makes a return appearance and we find out what he has done since "Cold Equations."
Data is coming back in The Light Fantastic.
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Old January 18 2014, 06:57 PM   #143
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

JD wrote: View Post
Data is coming back in The Light Fantastic.
I look forward to reading that one. Data is one of my favorite characters in any of the series.
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Old January 19 2014, 09:37 PM   #144
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Question about the Dordogne: it's described as having an "aft hatch".

Can we assume that it's not a Danube-class runabout, then?
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Old January 20 2014, 07:16 PM   #145
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

zarkon wrote: View Post
...Looking forward to seeing if "The Light Fantastic" might not just give the e-e a new second officer(has that role ever been filled since kadohata split?).
Geordi is the second officer. I forget which book it was mentioned in, but i clearly remember Picard describing him as the second officer now, as well as being the chief engineer. Anyone remember which book it was?
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Old January 20 2014, 07:19 PM   #146
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Like most other commentors, I enjoyed the book, but it was not my favorite of the bunch. Along with DRG3's R&D, I'd put this book in the bottom half of The Fall books. Not as gripping as the three that came before it. There were a few loose ends i would have like cleared up, like what Tom was going to do after his recuperation. But overall, not too bad. I voted average.
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Old January 20 2014, 10:41 PM   #147
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Paris wrote: View Post
zarkon wrote: View Post
...Looking forward to seeing if "The Light Fantastic" might not just give the e-e a new second officer(has that role ever been filled since kadohata split?).
Geordi is the second officer. I forget which book it was mentioned in, but i clearly remember Picard describing him as the second officer now, as well as being the chief engineer. Anyone remember which book it was?
I'm pretty sure it was Plagues of Night, but I don't have the book with me to check.
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Old January 20 2014, 10:58 PM   #148
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

^I think you're right. I think it was in the scene where they explained why he wasn't a Captain anymore.
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Old January 21 2014, 06:14 PM   #149
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

My review is up here is a portion of it.

In recent history, the Federation has lived on the edge. This has caused a reaction in many people of wanting it to stop, to protect themselves and feel safe. The ends begin to justify the means and optimism quickly turns to cynicism. Ishan is the embodiment of that. He is a man who, when faced with adversity, turned to survival as the highest value. But, as Star Trek as shown us, survival is nothing if it means sacrificing a civilization’s evolved and enlightened status. What is so smart about the series is that the enemy was not the Typhon Pact, but someone within the Federation, showing us that even the best things can be corrupted if not for constant vigilance. Wars and rumors of wars have an impact on a society and it becomes easy to lose sight of humanity’s greatest ideals in the face of annihilation. But it is through the dedication to the principles of the Federation that Picard, Riker and the other heroes of the story show us the importance of doing what is right, even when it is difficult, or else all that is truly good will be lost. The Fall has helped realign the 24th century and, in turn, has given us a mirror to evaluate ourselves. In the end, that is what Star Trek has always been about.
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Old January 21 2014, 07:18 PM   #150
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Re: TF: Peaceable Kingdoms by Dayton Ward Review Thread (Spoilers!)

Enterpriserules wrote: View Post
BrentMc wrote: View Post
I enjoyed this ending to "The Fall" series, but it did not leave me as satisfied as the David Mack "Destiny," or "Cold Equations" series. It left me more excited about future books. I was happy that in the ending they said Starfleet is going to do more exploring. I look forward to some Enterprise-E exploration themed books. I am not as interested in the more political, or cold war themed books.

I was glad Ezri Dax was put back into command. I hope to read more of her and the Aventine and I hope Data makes a return appearance and we find out what he has done since "Cold Equations."

I would like them to return Riker to command of Titan and have some missions with a deep space fleet with the Enterprise, Titan and Aventine.

They said the Enterprise was getting some upgrades. I would like for it and Titan to get quantum slipstream so that they don't seem outdated and they can go on deep space exploration missions with Aventine. They wouldn't all have to be side by side, but in the same region so they can meet up if they find anything or come to the aid of one another.

Who else things an exploration fleet of Enterprise, Titan (With Riker back) and Aventine could be a fun story arch?
I found it as satisfying as Destiny and more so that Cold Equations, even though I like CE. I am really hoping Riker will be back on Titan, but they did a really good job of making his admiralship very interesting. What I want to see is Sisko have more to do. I really miss that this character that was a god has had so little to do now that he is back in the universe. Personally I always thought he should be an admiral on the new DS9 as his base.
I enjoyed listening to literary trek and all the interviews with the authors for The Fall series I really enjoyed readindg all the books in this series the last book did a great wrapping up this series.I hope we'll get another Titan and Ds9 novel dealing with the aftermath of the events and see how people are dealing with Ishan and Velk will be tried for their crimes.
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