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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 30 2013, 05:12 PM   #16
desfem79
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: The Pegasus

hmm.. maybe i have a black and white view of it, but then any Starfleet officer is bound to uphold all treaties/agreements the Federation signs. So Picard did the right thing in that sense. and whether the Algeron treaty is bull (IMHO it is/was, if it still existed post-Dom war/2379/Nemesis), but then clearly it had wide support as there was no overall will to override it or re-negotiate it.

It's like a US Navy CO finding that an Admiral on his ship has breached a treaty with China. Whether he personally agrees with it or not is immaterial, and I doubt that's a good defence in any court martial. No more than me driving on the motorway and 150mph and telling the judge "meh, I don't believe in speed limits". I guess as others here have said, the Algeron Treaty could have stipulated this, but by the letter of the law Picard did the right thing.
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Old December 30 2013, 05:14 PM   #17
desfem79
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Re: The Pegasus

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
jimbotron wrote: View Post
Finngle Bells wrote: View Post
That's why Riker did the TATV crap, because it could have meant his career.
Nope, it never happened.
I concur. Here's the actual dialogue from TATV:

RIKER: I think I'm ready to talk to Captain Picard. I should have done it a long time ago. (hear, hear - go for it Will!)

And here is the only relevant "The Pegasus" scene where he had a chance to talk:

RIKER: I've said all I can. I am under direct orders from Admiral Pressman not to discuss this, sir.

(So essentially he's ready to talk, but won't because he is under orders not to do so...)

So when was he ready to talk to Picard according to TATV?!?

DATA: The asteroid's internal structure is highly unstable. Any attempt to cut through the rock could cause the entire chasm to collapse.
RIKER: Captain, I have a suggestion. There's a piece of equipment in Admiral Pressman's quarters under guard which might get us out of here. It's a prototype for a Federation cloaking device.

Oops...no, that was not the talk he promised in TATV, either. Sorry, can't stand retroactive continuity because of things like this.

Bob
Didn't Will tell Picard on the bridge? lol..

I think the Enterprise ep scene probably took place between them being in the asteroid and them exiting. i guess he and Deanna had to kill time whilst being in there lol..
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Old December 31 2013, 07:52 PM   #18
MikeS
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Re: The Pegasus

I am seeing an allegory between Edward Snowden and Picard here.
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Old February 25 2014, 08:38 PM   #19
jibrilmudo
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Re: The Pegasus

This episode from s7 comes after s5 The First Duty where Wesley got the whole "The First Duty" speech from Picard for his part in the Coverup for the attempted Kolvoord Starburst manuever and subsequent death of their teammate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0ff2Xns5g

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth! It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based. And if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened, you don't deserve to wear that uniform!"

Notice that Picard didn't merely tell the Romulans and then let things play out, he placed Admiral Pressman (and Commander Riker) under arrest at the end for violating the Treaty of Algeron.

I do find it confusing that Riker got a much lighter punishment in his role of this as Ensign than Wesley as cadet although both circumstances were pretty much the same (pressured by a higher up, a lowly cog in the chain, covering up what happened to a board of inquiry, and finally fessing to it under pressure). Picard was also more lenient to Riker personally than he was to Wesley. More people died with the Pegasus than the Academy incident.
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Old February 25 2014, 09:23 PM   #20
Vandervecken
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Re: The Pegasus

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
^ They could have just used the phasing part of the tech and left the cloak out (if possible).

A ship could still hide inside an asteroid.

And I think Picard telling the Romulans about it wasn't really his call. He should have let Starfleet do that through diplomatic channels.
I agree x 2. This is far more than a "cloak"; I frankly don't understand why this was covered under the treaty with the Romulans. I'm guessing, though, that it's not possible to divorce the phasing from the invisibility to eyes and sensors.

And Picard had even less right to make this call than he did to NOT make a strike against the Borg with that topological computer virus Data created for Hugh to carry, and that got Picard his ass chewed (always thought that one should have gotten him tarred and feathered, considering how many lives that decision might have cost at the New Providence colony and at Wolf 359).

THIS call was way above his paygrade. In fact, this should have been a Federation Council call, NOT a Starfleet call.
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Old February 25 2014, 09:29 PM   #21
Vandervecken
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Re: The Pegasus

jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
This episode from s7 comes after s5 The First Duty where Wesley got the whole "The First Duty" speech from Picard for his part in the Coverup for the attempted Kolvoord Starburst manuever and subsequent death of their teammate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0ff2Xns5g

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth! It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based. And if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened, you don't deserve to wear that uniform!"

Notice that Picard didn't merely tell the Romulans and then let things play out, he placed Admiral Pressman (and Commander Riker) under arrest at the end for violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Decision made by that renowned jurist and Federation legal scholar, Jen-Luc Picard. Uh huh.


I notice it, I just don't see his authority to do it, in addition to not recognizing his qualifications to interpret the treaty. Who the hell is Picard to interpret the legality of Federation treaties, especially as regards his superiors? This was for the Federation Council--the civilian government--to decide.

Picard must have been watching TOS, he was mavericking like Kirk.
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Old February 25 2014, 09:39 PM   #22
jibrilmudo
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Re: The Pegasus

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
This episode from s7 comes after s5 The First Duty where Wesley got the whole "The First Duty" speech from Picard for his part in the Coverup for the attempted Kolvoord Starburst manuever and subsequent death of their teammate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0ff2Xns5g

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth! It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based. And if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened, you don't deserve to wear that uniform!"

Notice that Picard didn't merely tell the Romulans and then let things play out, he placed Admiral Pressman (and Commander Riker) under arrest at the end for violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Decision made by that renowned jurist and Federation legal scholar, Jen-Luc Picard. Uh huh.


I notice it, I just don't see his authority to do it, in addition to not recognizing his qualifications to interpret the treaty. Who the hell is Picard to interpret the legality of Federation treaties, especially as regards his superiors? This was for the Federation Council--the civilian government--to decide.

Picard must have been watching TOS, he was mavericking like Kirk.
Considering that Picard was a representative in Data's hearing and also Picard's role in Drumhead, basic law must have been a requirement for Officers. They also encounter parts of law like in Ensigns of Command, and Q's first visit put them on trial. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of episodes not to mention all the ambassador taxiing and conferences going on, TNG felt extremely law heavy in some ways.

So maybe the structure of dealing with points of law changed than today. It might have been recognized that a human failing of past was to push onto higher authorities all matters of doing what is right, so an Star Fleet officer out in the field is charged with being more proactive in this area and less inclined towards bureacracy?

Idk, a lot of what you mention in previous posts really just comes down to the wholely idealistic nature of Star Trek that Roddenberry had.

I found the Pragmatism of DS9 overall refreshing in that way, unfortunately it didn't carry over much to Voyager which hoisted the idealistic flag once again and marched forward (with a few breaks like Tuvix).
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Old February 25 2014, 09:57 PM   #23
Vandervecken
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Re: The Pegasus

jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
Vandervecken wrote: View Post
jibrilmudo wrote: View Post
This episode from s7 comes after s5 The First Duty where Wesley got the whole "The First Duty" speech from Picard for his part in the Coverup for the attempted Kolvoord Starburst manuever and subsequent death of their teammate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W0ff2Xns5g

"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth, whether it's scientific truth or historical truth or personal truth! It is the guiding principle on which Starfleet is based. And if you can't find it within yourself to stand up and tell the truth about what happened, you don't deserve to wear that uniform!"

Notice that Picard didn't merely tell the Romulans and then let things play out, he placed Admiral Pressman (and Commander Riker) under arrest at the end for violating the Treaty of Algeron.
Decision made by that renowned jurist and Federation legal scholar, Jen-Luc Picard. Uh huh.


I notice it, I just don't see his authority to do it, in addition to not recognizing his qualifications to interpret the treaty. Who the hell is Picard to interpret the legality of Federation treaties, especially as regards his superiors? This was for the Federation Council--the civilian government--to decide.

Picard must have been watching TOS, he was mavericking like Kirk.
Considering that Picard was a representative in Data's hearing and also Picard's role in Drumhead, basic law must have been a requirement for Officers. They also encounter parts of law like in Ensigns of Command, and Q's first visit put them on trial. I'm sure I'm missing a lot of episodes not to mention all the ambassador taxiing and conferences going on, TNG felt extremely law heavy in some ways.

So maybe the structure of dealing with points of law changed than today. It might have been recognized that a human failing of past was to push onto higher authorities all matters of doing what is right, so an Star Fleet officer out in the field is charged with being more proactive in this area and less inclined towards bureacracy?

Idk, a lot of what you mention in previous posts really just comes down to the wholely idealistic nature of Star Trek that Roddenberry had.

I found the Pragmatism of DS9 overall refreshing in that way, unfortunately it didn't carry over much to Voyager which hoisted the idealistic flag once again and marched forward (with a few breaks like Tuvix).

I considered that Picard has some good legal experience before posting, it's just that this is a treaty with another galactic power, not just law within the Federation, AND he was judging and enforcing law against his superiors.


Your suggestion that the Federation might have done away with entirely hierarchical legal decisionmaking is interesting and imaginative, but consider: if they had done so, why would such authority stop with Starfleet captains? Would such authority then be reposed in EVERY individual Federation citizen? If not, why not? Wouldn't Joe Shmo from Rigel have just as much right to make such decisions and enforce them as a Starfleet captain, since the whole point of this doctrine would be to vest that authority in all the strata of society? if not so vested, it's just imposing a caste system (only Starfleet personnel and civilian government types may do this); if so vested, it's really just anarchy.

This one always nagged at me, too.
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Last edited by Vandervecken; February 25 2014 at 11:25 PM.
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Old February 25 2014, 10:53 PM   #24
JirinPanthosa
Rear Admiral
 
Re: The Pegasus

The thing about Picard's decision though is that there was a time limit associated with it. The Romulans finding out the Federation had developed a cloak on their own was more likely to start a war than finding out through a direct admission. It makes it far more credible that it was the action of individuals acting without orders if nobody else tried to cover it up.

And Picard has repeatedly been given broad powers over time sensitive diplomatic issues pertaining to the Romulans when there isn't time to report back and get an instant decisions. He also exercised that power in The Enemy and The Defector.

The Treaty of Algernon might have been a bad idea (You might even use the term "Pre-Dominion thinking" to emulate certain manipulative fascists), but it was absolutely Picard's duty to uphold it. The Federation has repeatedly been established as an organization that puts principle before practicality and peace before tactical strength. Leaders who engage in such deceptive, illegal practices forfeit their right to lead.
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Old February 26 2014, 03:29 AM   #25
Lance
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Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: The Pegasus

Let us compare Picard's actions to Kirk's in "The Enterprise Incident".

Kirk's mission is basically analogous to what Pressman was doing, and he plays it completely straight, following his orders to sneak aboard a Romulan vessel and steal away her cloak, even though (we presume) the treaty forbidding Federation cloaking technology was in effect even then, and Kirk would reasonably be expected to be cut loose by Starfleet if the Romulans catch him (which they do, luckily he escapes).

Picard takes a moral standpoint on basically the same issue. He says that treaties exist for a reason, and argues that no matter what his superiors say, Federation starships with cloaking devices are illegal. And he was morally correct to do so, even though at face value it would appear he not only jeopardized the mission, he actually blew it completely out of the water.

Riker is caught somewhere in the middle. The reason Riker agonized so much about telling Picard is that, like any good little toy soldier, he was inclined to do exactly what he did back in his Ensign Babyface days, and follow his orders from Starfleet Command (via Admiral Pressman) without question. But Picard's influence over his life appears to have introduced moral ambiguity that he didn't have before the Enterprise. He now questions himself, whether he should always just blindly do what he's told, something he never once thought about back when he was an Ensign. Although in Riker's case, maybe it's more about simply being forced to lie to and betray his current Captain, with whom he has something of a paternal bond. Creating an analogy in his mind to the Pegasus situation, where likewise he totally supported Captain Pressman.

Realistically, Picard should have come out of Pegasus facing a hearing into his actions, but undoubtedly Riker would have backed him up and maybe the cloaking device would be too much of a political hot potato that Starfleet was just like, "Meh, ok, send Pressman to jail and let's just forget this whole sordid thing".

Alternatively, like many a corrupt Admiral in Star Trek, Pressman was acting autonomously from Starfleet, eager to finish off his own little crusade started with the Pegasus, and when push came to shove Starfleet agreed with Picard and Riker and threw the book at Pressman.
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Old February 26 2014, 03:40 AM   #26
2takesfrakes
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Re: The Pegasus

How do you good people feel about how ENTERPRISE referred to this with "These Are the Voyages?". I thought it was a nice tie-in and expanded on Riker's deep concern over the predicament it put him in. I would've liked it if he'd talked to Malcolm Reed, more, because of the situation he was put in, when Phlox was kidnapped by the Klingons. There would've been a nice kind of flow to it ...
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Old February 26 2014, 04:32 AM   #27
Tosk
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Re: The Pegasus

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
How do you good people feel about how ENTERPRISE referred to this with "These Are the Voyages?". I thought it was a nice tie-in and expanded on Riker's deep concern over the predicament it put him in.
I hated it for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. The ENT ep was seemingly written from a memory of Pegasus rather than actually re-watching it. Either that or a willful ignorance of continuity.
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Old February 26 2014, 04:49 AM   #28
PhoenixClass
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Re: The Pegasus

Vandervecken wrote: View Post
Decision made by that renowned jurist and Federation legal scholar, Jen-Luc Picard. Uh huh.


I notice it, I just don't see his authority to do it, in addition to not recognizing his qualifications to interpret the treaty. Who the hell is Picard to interpret the legality of Federation treaties, especially as regards his superiors? This was for the Federation Council--the civilian government--to decide.

Picard must have been watching TOS, he was mavericking like Kirk.
If memory serves me correctly, Pressman conceded that treaty did apply to the phasing technology. He went on a tirade about how the treaty was putting the Federation at a disadvantage. If the treaty did not apply, he would not have mentioned it all.
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Old February 26 2014, 04:53 AM   #29
2takesfrakes
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Re: The Pegasus

Tosk wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
How do you good people feel about how ENTERPRISE referred to this with "These Are the Voyages?". I thought it was a nice tie-in and expanded on Riker's deep concern over the predicament it put him in.
I hated it for the reasons mentioned earlier in the thread. The ENT ep was seemingly written from a memory of Pegasus rather than actually re-watching it. Either that or a willful ignorance of continuity.
... I appreciate the answer! Believe me, I know how TATV is hated in some circles, but I loved seeing Riker and Troi in this.
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Old February 26 2014, 12:41 PM   #30
Ar-Pharazon
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Re: The Pegasus

Kirk stealing a cloaking device was probably more about learning how to defeat it than actually buildng one.
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