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Old December 30 2013, 08:43 PM   #31
Pauln6
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Re: Transporter beams itself?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think Gödel's second incompleteness theorem rules out the possibility of a transporter beaming itself. A transporter needs to model and process the complete data about anything it transports, nothing left out, but Godel's theorem proves that no system can completely explain or encompass itself. It can only be completely modeled by a larger system that contains it.

And you seem to be saying the matter stream is a Bose-Einstein condensate, but that doesn't mean there's an intact machine in there somewhere. In order for something to function as an intact material object, it needs to have its particles correlated in a macroscopic, "classical" state wherein they're all physically connected into a solid. They need to be in certain positions to work; the particles of the focusing components have to be aligned so that they function as lenses, the particles of the current paths have to be aligned so that they can actually conduct electricity along a path, etc. There needs to be a single definite answer to where the bits go and how they interact in order for them to have a definite effect.

Physical laws apply everywhere, but they have to be directed in the right ways to get a desired effect. A huge pile of sawdust is subject to the same physical laws as a catapult made of the same amount of wood, but it's not going to be able to have the same effect, because it's not in a configuration that can exert or take advantage of physical laws in the right way.
Sheer genius.
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Old December 31 2013, 01:44 AM   #32
ZapBrannigan
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Re: Transporter beams itself?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think Gödel's second incompleteness theorem rules out the possibility of a transporter beaming itself. A transporter needs to model and process the complete data about anything it transports, nothing left out, but Godel's theorem proves that no system can completely explain or encompass itself. It can only be completely modeled by a larger system that contains it.

Christopher is really on the beam.

http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/on+the+beam
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Old December 31 2013, 03:25 AM   #33
Phanton
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Re: Transporter beams itself?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think Gödel's second incompleteness theorem rules out the possibility of a transporter beaming itself.
Conditions setup wave – wave carries everything including transporter hardware (operational or not) the waves have been entangled at that point and are now ‘in motion’ of a kind riding the subspace wave which was spiked with enough of the right kind of energy to last until wave evaporates (termination event) at designed end point.

The subspace pulse energies encoded with the surfer frequencies ride the wave happily on their own to their termination event unless there is a receiving station to catch the wave and fail or the initial subspace pulse wasn’t strong enough resulting in failed termination event the wave dissipates after the surfer hits rocks or miles before beach maybe due to gravitational effect (do gravitons and tachyons affect subspace?) wave energy pops into a door ceiling planet core etc ouch!

Assuming the wave is smooth inside the matter stream the transporter does not need to be operational to continue to ride the subspace wave (ocean) it could be re-used to lock onto {self+surfer} again and beam to another wave in the stream beaming within beaming. There may be less energy required to do this since subspace spike already in place maybe just needs a nudge.

Christopher wrote: View Post
A transporter needs to model and process the complete data about anything it transports, nothing left out, but Godel's theorem proves that no system can completely explain or encompass itself.
I think the universe encompasses itself and knows everything about itself in a super self aware state of awesomeness reflecting internally all the time. Classical axioms may not apply in quantum mechanical realms.

Christopher wrote: View Post
And you seem to be saying the matter stream is a Bose-Einstein condensate, but that doesn't mean there's an intact machine in there somewhere.
I think the nature of quantum mechanics is holographic with super internal reflection differing from total in the sense that space and time are connected thus the future and past are reflections of each other.

Christopher wrote: View Post
In order for something to function as an intact material object, it needs to have its particles correlated in a macroscopic, "classical" state wherein they're all physically connected into a solid.
If the wavefunction of the transporter on the surfboard is holographic then I think it should work because it has always been a hologram. We’re just pushing some functions around in a hologram.

Christopher wrote: View Post
They need to be in certain positions to work; the particles of the focusing components have to be aligned so that they function as lenses, the particles of the current paths have to be aligned so that they can actually conduct electricity along a path, etc.
The technology to set up the correct conditions getting subspace frequencies to match target and push all waves at precise time accounting for relativistic non local effects would have to be ‘bug free’ for sure but once the energies are in motion and stable the hardware could be used again because it is holographic.

Christopher wrote: View Post
There needs to be a single definite answer to where the bits go and how they interact in order for them to have a definite effect.
Maybe subspace pulse at right frequencies is all that’s needed to tinkle with these quantum mechanical forces, of course we would need the right iPhone app to generate correct pulse frequencies accurately and correctly every time.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Physical laws apply everywhere, but they have to be directed in the right ways to get a desired effect.
Yes I agree. Thermodynamically speaking when the thrusters go off on the ship it doesn’t stop its inertia keeps it going and requires energy to stop it, a la initial subspace pulse with designed dissipation frequencies. The holographic information remains holographic entangled and in superposition all the time if done correctly.

Christopher wrote: View Post
A huge pile of sawdust is subject to the same physical laws as a catapult made of the same amount of wood, but it's not going to be able to have the same effect, because it's not in a configuration that can exert or take advantage of physical laws in the right way.
Quantum mechanically speaking the space occupied by the pile of sawdust could just ‘pop’ into a huge Starship there is nothing to prevent this from happening it’s just said to be unlikely.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:55 AM   #34
picardo
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Re: Transporter beams itself?

Christopher wrote: View Post
picardo wrote: View Post
In computer programming there's something known as the metadata, which is commonly defined as "data about data".

Thence I'd logically conclude that a transporter can beam itself, since this is explained by the metadata handling lesser units of data.
But that's software. You still need intact hardware to run it on. How the hell can a dissociated cloud of atoms function as a transporter?
Judging by what's seen in Voyager's "counterpoint" all the hardware you need to rematerialise people are a couple of projectors you install on the floor. These might as well be holographic? (thus software..)
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Old December 31 2013, 01:14 PM   #35
Tiberius
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Re: Transporter beams itself?

Christopher wrote: View Post
And how is a subspace beam a wormhole?
They're analogous because they both involve bypassing normal 3-dimensional space to transmit things through additional dimensions. The reason Sternbach & Okuda established that transporters operate through subspace was to explain how they could beam through solid matter, transporting people inside ships or buildings or into/out of caves underground. Their conclusion was that the beam bypassed normal space by passing through subspace. That's essentially what a wormhole does.
My understanding of wormholes is that they bend space to allow two distant points to be close together. We've never seen that subspace does this.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:08 PM   #36
Christopher
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Re: Transporter beams itself?

Tiberius wrote: View Post
My understanding of wormholes is that they bend space to allow two distant points to be close together. We've never seen that subspace does this.
You're thinking of a space fold drive. The term "wormhole," coined by John Wheeler, is by analogy with a hole bored through an apple by a worm, connecting one part of the apple's skin with a distant part on the other side through a tunnel passing through the interior. A wormhole, or Einstein-Rosen bridge, is an analogous structure, a sort of spacetime "tunnel" connecting two parts of spacetime by passing through a higher-dimensional realm.

And again, I am not saying that a beam through subspace is a wormhole -- any more than John Wheeler was saying that the universe is literally the skin of an apple. It's an analogy. I'm saying they're two different things that have similar effect. They're both ways of sending matter from one part of space to another without passing through the intervening space.
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