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Old December 31 2013, 02:43 AM   #91
desfem79
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-D had no quantum torpodoes or pulse phasers.
As far as onscreen material is concerned, the only difference between photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes is that the latter is bluish-white when fired. But otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that other ships--including the Galaxy-class--can't also now be stocked with quantum torpedoes (provided they can make enough of them). And pulse phasers aren't all that new--both the original Enterprise and the Reliant had such weapons in Star Trek II. If anything, the Defiant was kind of old-school in that regard.
nor ablative armour or a cloak (granted, on loan from the Romulans).
Those aren't weapons, those are defensive systems, which wasn't the issue raised. As far as weapons are concerned, the Defiant isn't quite all that, but they are very considerable for a ship that small.
but they all add to tactical capability. The pulse phasers in the Defiant are of a higher strength than the Defiant. If we mean Galaxy-class in the Dom War, then yes. But the Enterprise-D specifically, no.
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Old December 31 2013, 02:49 AM   #92
PicardSpeedo
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-D had no quantum torpodoes or pulse phasers.
As far as onscreen material is concerned, the only difference between photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes is that the latter is bluish-white when fired. But otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that other ships--including the Galaxy-class--can't also now be stocked with quantum torpedoes (provided they can make enough of them). And pulse phasers aren't all that new--both the original Enterprise and the Reliant had such weapons in Star Trek II. If anything, the Defiant was kind of old-school in that regard.
nor ablative armour or a cloak (granted, on loan from the Romulans).
Those aren't weapons, those are defensive systems, which wasn't the issue raised. As far as weapons are concerned, the Defiant isn't quite all that, but they are very considerable for a ship that small.
but they all add to tactical capability. The pulse phasers in the Defiant are of a higher strength than the Defiant. If we mean Galaxy-class in the Dom War, then yes. But the Enterprise-D specifically, no.
Also, the Defiant featured the most technologically-advanced and powerful toilet in the entire fleet, and with good reason - when you put a Klingon, an Irishman, and a Captain with a fondness for crazy-spicy Cajun cooking all in close quarters, you absolutely must ensure that the plumbing works.
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Old December 31 2013, 07:01 AM   #93
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
The Enterprise-D had no quantum torpodoes or pulse phasers.
As far as onscreen material is concerned, the only difference between photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes is that the latter is bluish-white when fired. But otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that other ships--including the Galaxy-class--can't also now be stocked with quantum torpedoes (provided they can make enough of them). And pulse phasers aren't all that new--both the original Enterprise and the Reliant had such weapons in Star Trek II. If anything, the Defiant was kind of old-school in that regard.
nor ablative armour or a cloak (granted, on loan from the Romulans).
Those aren't weapons, those are defensive systems, which wasn't the issue raised. As far as weapons are concerned, the Defiant isn't quite all that, but they are very considerable for a ship that small.
but they all add to tactical capability.
So does the shields of a larger vessel. Apples and oranges.
The pulse phasers in the Defiant are of a higher strength than the Defiant. If we mean Galaxy-class in the Dom War, then yes. But the Enterprise-D specifically, no.
There's really nothing to suggest any of that. Pulse phasers are just shorter blasts while standard phasers are continuous blasts. I would contend that pulse phasers are ideally suited for a smaller nimble vessel like the Defiant-class that can bob and weave quickly, but the key to any phaser is contact against an enemy vessel's shields or hull. A Defiant-class ship can do it with a quick salvo at fairly close range, while a larger ship can do it with several shots at a longer range.

I think ideally, Defiant-class ships are supposed to be deployed in a squadron where they can swarm and overwhelm a much larger target, such as a Borg cube. Individually, they have the tactical capability of a larger starship squeezed into a much smaller one.
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Old January 1 2014, 12:14 AM   #94
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Since she was built to fight the Borg I'd imagine each shot would be a random modulated pulse. She does have at least one normal array too - based near the Bridge and used briefly in Paradise Lost, and on the Mirror Defiant in Shattered Mirror.

I find it rather handy they built a ship to fight the Borg without the normal exposed nacelles, the Borg never took advantage of that weakness, but it was the first thing the Dominion did. Almost as if they knew...
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Old January 1 2014, 07:39 AM   #95
mswood
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

PicardSpeedo wrote: View Post
Bearded Bloke wrote: View Post
^Don't forget it's shields were down and the Dominion ships fired several shots before they realized their weapons alone couldn't disable it. I wouldn't call that Galaxy class weak, I'd call the Dominion desperate to please the Founders.
And yet the Enterprise-E rammed the Scimitar far more forcefully and survived? I guess they fixed the exploding gas tank issue between model years...
The Enterprise was at a dead stop in very close range and rammed the ship, the Jem' Hadar were making full combat maneuvers (put running other vessels who were trying to stop them) and ramming the Galaxy, and what destroyed it was part of the damaged hull hitting the already damaged warp core.

Most of the damage people are talking about are types when the ships are either utterly down, or the weapons of the enemy are of frequencies that the shields don't work on.

Heck you see the Enterprise doing damage to the Borg when they can for brief seconds find its shield weaknesses.
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Old January 1 2014, 02:20 PM   #96
desfem79
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
As far as onscreen material is concerned, the only difference between photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes is that the latter is bluish-white when fired. But otherwise, there's nothing to suggest that other ships--including the Galaxy-class--can't also now be stocked with quantum torpedoes (provided they can make enough of them). And pulse phasers aren't all that new--both the original Enterprise and the Reliant had such weapons in Star Trek II. If anything, the Defiant was kind of old-school in that regard.
Those aren't weapons, those are defensive systems, which wasn't the issue raised. As far as weapons are concerned, the Defiant isn't quite all that, but they are very considerable for a ship that small.
but they all add to tactical capability.
So does the shields of a larger vessel. Apples and oranges.
The pulse phasers in the Defiant are of a higher strength than the Defiant. If we mean Galaxy-class in the Dom War, then yes. But the Enterprise-D specifically, no.
There's really nothing to suggest any of that. Pulse phasers are just shorter blasts while standard phasers are continuous blasts. I would contend that pulse phasers are ideally suited for a smaller nimble vessel like the Defiant-class that can bob and weave quickly, but the key to any phaser is contact against an enemy vessel's shields or hull. A Defiant-class ship can do it with a quick salvo at fairly close range, while a larger ship can do it with several shots at a longer range.

I think ideally, Defiant-class ships are supposed to be deployed in a squadron where they can swarm and overwhelm a much larger target, such as a Borg cube. Individually, they have the tactical capability of a larger starship squeezed into a much smaller one.
So how do you define tactical capability?

As most here may know, a vessel class all hold the same basic design. So as Sisko's ships in DS9 had more advanced weaponry than what we saw of the Enterprise-D, then it reasons to me at the least that Defiant class ships are tactically more able. you mention shielding, but then shielding is defined by capacity to absorb/repel fire, just like in real life. This would depend on the power capacity of the vessel, not the physical size of it.
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Old January 1 2014, 03:36 PM   #97
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

desfem79 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
desfem79 wrote: View Post

but they all add to tactical capability.
So does the shields of a larger vessel. Apples and oranges.
The pulse phasers in the Defiant are of a higher strength than the Defiant. If we mean Galaxy-class in the Dom War, then yes. But the Enterprise-D specifically, no.
There's really nothing to suggest any of that. Pulse phasers are just shorter blasts while standard phasers are continuous blasts. I would contend that pulse phasers are ideally suited for a smaller nimble vessel like the Defiant-class that can bob and weave quickly, but the key to any phaser is contact against an enemy vessel's shields or hull. A Defiant-class ship can do it with a quick salvo at fairly close range, while a larger ship can do it with several shots at a longer range.

I think ideally, Defiant-class ships are supposed to be deployed in a squadron where they can swarm and overwhelm a much larger target, such as a Borg cube. Individually, they have the tactical capability of a larger starship squeezed into a much smaller one.
So how do you define tactical capability?
An ability to engage and defend against multiple targets.
As most here may know, a vessel class all hold the same basic design. So as Sisko's ships in DS9 had more advanced weaponry than what we saw of the Enterprise-D, then it reasons to me at the least that Defiant class ships are tactically more able. you mention shielding, but then shielding is defined by capacity to absorb/repel fire, just like in real life. This would depend on the power capacity of the vessel, not the physical size of it.
But see, that it's exactly. You can have two ships--one big, one small--and yet both can the same tactical capability if they have the same kind of power plant and even if their weapons are slightly different (I would argue that the only difference between standard phasers and pulse phasers are their range & rate of fire, and that the only thing preventing every ship from carrying quantum torpedoes is limited availability). The Defiant was described by Sisko as being overpowered for a ship of its size, so it does stand to reason that it wouldn't be considered that if it was larger. I think what the Defiant-class really brings to the table (aside from ablative hull covering) is extreme maneuverability and the ability to attack at almost point-blank range. It truly is a tough little ship.
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Old January 1 2014, 10:44 PM   #98
RunawayStarShip
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

It's more than just maneuverability (and the ability for a fleet of Defiant-class ships to swarm a larger target).

The Defiant certainly demonstrated greater firepower than the Odyssey in "The Search" (although, it's possible the Jem'hadar targeted things like power conduits and the forward torpedo launcher to reduce the Odyssey's ability to retaliate). In "Defiant" (which takes place in 2371), Dukat refers to the Defiant as "one of the most heavily armed warships in this quadrant", and Kira says it is "one of the most powerful".

Now, things seem to change with Starfleet's retrofit of the fleet in 2372-73 (?) as demonstrated by the Lakota. The Defiant's undocumented ablative armor is the difference in what Leyton assumed would be a battle that the Lakota would win. The Defiant, at the time, is slightly more than a match for an up-to-date Federation heavy cruiser given its firepower and durability. Like you say, their power plants are probably comparable as well.

That's pretty incredible, given that the Defiant is only 29% the volume of a Constitution while the Lakota is over 4.6 times larger than a Constitution.
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Old January 2 2014, 03:15 AM   #99
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

From onscreen material, there truly isn't anything that actually says or indicates that the Defiant's weapons are more powerful than a Galaxy-class. It's been colloquially referred to as a heavily armed warship and one of the most powerful, but those terms can also be applied to the Galaxy-class or any big starship, really. I'd submit that it could beat an Excelsior-class ship in a head-on engagement, though, but I do think that's more of a result of being able to outmaneuver it and deliver more direct hits (its biggest advantage against any larger vessel, IMO).

The initial problem with the Defiant was that it had trouble with a power plant that would have been better suited on a larger vessel. It took a little bit to resolve that issue,
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Old January 2 2014, 03:41 PM   #100
anh165
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

At the end of the day, the Galaxy class ship can accommodate thousands of people while it takes them across long distances in comfort, and has all the capabilities required for her crew to perform scientific and diplomatic missions, and worst of all survive first time encounters with whatever they run into.

The Defiant logistically falls well short of this and when have we seen it defend herself against UNKNOWN enemy threats? Not very often.
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Old January 3 2014, 05:13 AM   #101
RunawayStarShip
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
From onscreen material, there truly isn't anything that actually says or indicates that the Defiant's weapons are more powerful than a Galaxy-class. It's been colloquially referred to as a heavily armed warship and one of the most powerful, but those terms can also be applied to the Galaxy-class or any big starship, really.
The Defiant manages to destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship in "The Search" with its pulse phasers in a few shots. In comparison, the Odyssey doesn't manage to destroy one with its own phaser fire in "The Jem'Hadar" (although according to the script, a "Jem'Hadar ship is crippled" after exchanging fire with the runabouts Mekong and Orinoco and presumably the Odyssey earlier on). So in terms of phasers, the Defiant had more powerful ones (at the time). In terms of torpedoes, the Defiant had more advanced ones (at the time). Now, a Galaxy-class starship had torpedo tubes that could fire up to at least 5 simultaneously, and they could be used to rapid-fire bursts of torpedoes (like in "The Survivor" or "The Cost of Living"), so the Odyssey might still hold the firepower advantage... but torpedoes probably wouldn't have been effective against the small and nimble Jem'Hadar attack ships.

Now, the two episodes in question occur in late 2370 and early 2371. As aforementioned, the fleet-wide upgrades in mid-2372 seem to narrow (or maybe even eliminate?) whatever firepower advantage the Defiant had in early 2371.

I'd submit that it could beat an Excelsior-class ship in a head-on engagement, though, but I do think that's more of a result of being able to outmaneuver it and deliver more direct hits (its biggest advantage against any larger vessel, IMO).
Leyton expected the upgraded Lakota to defeat the Defiant in battle... if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their fancy ablative armor...

But yeah, maneuverability seems to be a major factor alluded to in "Heart of Glory" and then finally demonstrated in full in DS9. Heck, the Valiant might have survived after damaging the Dominion battleship (as strong as *three* Galaxy-class starships?!) had it just run away (or at least kept zigzagging) when the crew realized that their trick couldn't finish the job.
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Old January 3 2014, 08:52 AM   #102
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post

The Defiant manages to destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship in "The Search" with its pulse phasers in a few shots. In comparison, the Odyssey doesn't manage to destroy one with its own phaser fire in "The Jem'Hadar" (although according to the script, a "Jem'Hadar ship is crippled" after exchanging fire with the runabouts Mekong and Orinoco and presumably the Odyssey earlier on).
That may be true but one should also consider the sensor data the runabouts gathered from that battle in "The Jem'Hadar". The destructive yield for the Defiant's pulse cannons was probably augmented in order to have an effect on Jem'Hadar ships. In TNG we saw Galaxy class phasers having no trouble either disabling, puncturing and or destroying Klingon, Cardassian, Romulan and Borg ships. The Dominion ships were a new animal that overwhelmed the Odyssey.

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
In terms of torpedoes, the Defiant had more advanced ones (at the time). Now, a Galaxy-class starship had torpedo tubes that could fire up to at least 5 simultaneously, and they could be used to rapid-fire bursts of torpedoes (like in "The Survivor" or "The Cost of Living"), so the Odyssey might still hold the firepower advantage... but torpedoes probably wouldn't have been effective against the small and nimble Jem'Hadar attack ships.
Nimble? HA. Watch the battle of DS9 in the episode "A Call To Arms". You'll notice that all it takes to destroy a Jem'Hadar ship is 2-3 photon torpedoes. Also the Galaxy class could fire up to 10 torpedoes simultaneously at 10 distinct targets.


If you look take the canon feats of Galaxy classes seen on screen TNG and compare them objectively against what we see in DS9. You'll discover that there are inconsistencies stemming from whatever the writers/producers demand the of the episodes plot.

We know from DS9 "A Call To Arms" all it takes is either 2 or 3 photon torpedoes to destroy a Jem'Hadar ship. We know from TNG "The Best of Both Worlds", the a Galaxy class and spam phasers and torpedoes at the same time. And yet when the Odyssey faced 3 Jem'Hadar ships, and phasers proved ineffective. Nary a photon torpedoes was fired in defense of the ship. The Odyssey is destroyed but the smaller runabout shuttlecrafts miraculously survive. This is called PIS, Plot Induced Stupidity. It's the same thing that was done in GEN with the destruction of the Ent-D.


RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
But yeah, maneuverability seems to be a major factor alluded to in "Heart of Glory" and then finally demonstrated in full in DS9. Heck, the Valiant might have survived after damaging the Dominion battleship (as strong as *three* Galaxy-class starships?!) had it just run away (or at least kept zigzagging) when the crew realized that their trick couldn't finish the job.
Maneuverability isn't all that and a bag of ships. I've been on a rewatch of DS9. Upon reviewing battle scenes from the "Search", "Sacrifice of the Angels", "Tears of the Prophets", "Changing Face of Evil" and "What you Leave Behind". You will notice the Defiant is hit quite a lot. There are scenes full of exploding consoles, a smokey bridge and yells stating current shield strength. With targeting computers it's not impossible to imagine the Defiant being hit as frequently as other ships against the Dominion. The Defiant and her crew survive primarily because of plot shielding/hero shielding.

Contrast that to what we see happen in the episode "Valiant". Another Defiant class ship faces off against a Dominion ship and is blown to bits with everyone except 3 people being killed before the ship even blows up. Jake and Nog are protected by plot shielding, and there was one member of the crew who survived. Her only purpose was to give a deluded statement from her POV of events. Which Nog thought should be put in Jake's story.


Ultimately a ship strength's and abilities are dictated by the writers, and plot demands.

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Old January 3 2014, 11:32 AM   #103
Cyke101
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

On a side note about the Defiant and its dodging capabilities have been brought up -- I could buy that the Defiant is meant to be nimble and can dodge well. But it was pretty odd that the Lakota landed every hit she could. Sure, one could argue that Defiant dodged a few attacks off-screen, but DS9 tends to be consistent with showing at least a few dodged attacks. As it is, it seemed that the Lakota had a 100% hit rate on Defiant (ironically, Defiant missed a couple shots on the much larger Lakota while doing a barrel roll -- perhaps while trying to dodge).
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Old January 3 2014, 11:41 AM   #104
anh165
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Remember that the Klingon bird of prey is just as maneuverable and had cloaking ability as far back as the 23rd century, if zipping between torpedoes gives the Klingons that much of a tactical advantage then all the Federation connie and excelsior classes at the time would have easily been dust in any encounter with them.

You have to remember that the Defiant is a 'hero' ship and was a bit of a Millennium falcon rip-off, and often you will see supposedly superior adversaries job to it to make it look good to the viewers.

In First Contact, the Defiant was close to destruction (considering it was 'designed' to combat the borg) this was to build tension and allow the Ent-E to make a dramatic entrance and make the latter look good as she was the hero ship.


If the Defiant or a typical prime universe BoP were in the JJ universe, I can't picture how it could ever evade anything from the very rapid firing weapons you see from the JJ-prise/Vengeance/Narada etc
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Old January 3 2014, 08:45 PM   #105
Cyke101
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

anh165 wrote: View Post
Remember that the Klingon bird of prey is just as maneuverable and had cloaking ability as far back as the 23rd century, if zipping between torpedoes gives the Klingons that much of a tactical advantage then all the Federation connie and excelsior classes at the time would have easily been dust in any encounter with them.
To be fair, BoPs only started to show their nimbleness from DS9-on. They moved like any other starship in the TOS movies and TNG (and Generations, oddly enough), presumably because of special fx limitations. However, I get your point.
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