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Old January 10 2014, 12:44 PM   #136
PicardSpeedo
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

bbjeg wrote: View Post
^I thought they teleported it out and reconstituted it into something else.
Most probably, which is likely why it took Geordi so long to get to engineering. :-P
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Old January 14 2014, 08:52 PM   #137
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Sorry for jumping in late here. Real life intervened.

But my sense has always been that the Galaxy-class, as originally fielded in 2360s, was a powerful and respectable vessel. Certainly the most powerful of any other class of starship then in Starfleet service. But it was, in my view, not as powerful as it could have been. Rather than being as powerful as the spaceframe and power systems could make it, the ship was probably designed to be as powerful as Starfleet's experts felt it would need to be.

Recall the situation around the time the Galaxies were entering service. A peaceful, allied Klingon Empire. The Romulans in total isolation. No contact yet with the Borg or Dominion. Some fighting with the Cardassians, sure, and other powers, but no one that really could rival the Federation in an all-out war, if it came down to it. The Galaxies were designed in peacetime, and I imagine that their tactical systems were designed by people thinking, "OK, well, how much firepower does this thing need to make it the strongest ship in the fleet and make sure it's competitive with anything else operating in the region? Let's figure out what that much firepower is and go with that."

But, in short order, the Romulans were back, the Borg were around, the Klingons went apeshit and the Dominion showed up. I think the Galaxies we saw kicking so much ass in DS9 were the ones that Starfleet had outfitted to maximize the combat capability of the class, rather than just meet the bureaucratic requirements of the design tender. And that was probably a very substantial increase in firepower indeed (and was probably also done to most every ship in Starfleet that was capable of it).
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Old January 15 2014, 03:30 PM   #138
jmampilly
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Matt4511 wrote: View Post
Sorry for jumping in late here. Real life intervened.

But my sense has always been that the Galaxy-class, as originally fielded in 2360s, was a powerful and respectable vessel. Certainly the most powerful of any other class of starship then in Starfleet service. But it was, in my view, not as powerful as it could have been. Rather than being as powerful as the spaceframe and power systems could make it, the ship was probably designed to be as powerful as Starfleet's experts felt it would need to be.

Recall the situation around the time the Galaxies were entering service. A peaceful, allied Klingon Empire. The Romulans in total isolation. No contact yet with the Borg or Dominion. Some fighting with the Cardassians, sure, and other powers, but no one that really could rival the Federation in an all-out war, if it came down to it. The Galaxies were designed in peacetime, and I imagine that their tactical systems were designed by people thinking, "OK, well, how much firepower does this thing need to make it the strongest ship in the fleet and make sure it's competitive with anything else operating in the region? Let's figure out what that much firepower is and go with that."

But, in short order, the Romulans were back, the Borg were around, the Klingons went apeshit and the Dominion showed up. I think the Galaxies we saw kicking so much ass in DS9 were the ones that Starfleet had outfitted to maximize the combat capability of the class, rather than just meet the bureaucratic requirements of the design tender. And that was probably a very substantial increase in firepower indeed (and was probably also done to most every ship in Starfleet that was capable of it).
I absolutely agree. I think your theory is by far the best one I've seen. The Enterprise-D was a peacetime ship, whereas the kickass Galaxies we see in DS9 are true warships.
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Old January 15 2014, 04:22 PM   #139
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Matt4511 wrote: View Post
Some fighting with the Cardassians, sure, and other powers, but no one that really could rival the Federation in an all-out war, if it came down to it. The Galaxies were designed in peacetime, and I imagine that their tactical systems were designed by people thinking, "OK, well, how much firepower does this thing need to make it the strongest ship in the fleet and make sure it's competitive with anything else operating in the region? Let's figure out what that much firepower is and go with that."
The Cardassians' Galor class was the primary class back in TNG, and that somewhere (I *think*) it was mentioned that three of them were a match for a Galaxy. But having three of them fight a Galaxy shows, I think, the kind of controlled and careful escalation by Starfleet that's reflected in your theory.

I would imagine that the simple fact of the E-D being an all purpose, 640 meter swiss army knife kind of ship would mean that it wouldn't have the offensive power that the Galaxy could be designed to handle. The Galaxy's famed module system could easily switch out a few science departments for more energy batteries, for example, so it could be fitted for battle like in DS9.
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Old January 16 2014, 12:43 AM   #140
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Cyke101 wrote: View Post

The Cardassians' Galor class was the primary class back in TNG, and that somewhere (I *think*) it was mentioned that three of them were a match for a Galaxy. But having three of them fight a Galaxy shows, I think, the kind of controlled and careful escalation by Starfleet that's reflected in your theory.
Nothing really jumps out at me as being a clear and definitive signal of how Galaxies compared with Galors. The Enterprise easily fends off the Trager in The Wounded — really easily, when you think about it. In The Chase, Gul ... I don't recall, the lady gul — confidently boasts that she had two ships to Picard's one, but he didn't seem all that bothered by the tactical situation, so she may have been bluffing. (I suspect she was bluffing.)

Personally, my money would be on a TNG-era Galaxy having no difficulty taking on two Galors, and would probably still bet on the Galaxy against three Galors, though that'd be a tougher fight. But it's just my gut call. I don't really see even three Galors overwhelming a Galaxy before the Galaxy could hit spam-fire enough phasers and torpedoes to make it a more even fight. Galors always seemed to have glass jaws (or maybe Starfleet issue starboard power couplings).
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Old January 16 2014, 01:04 AM   #141
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

jmampilly wrote: View Post
Matt4511 wrote: View Post
Sorry for jumping in late here. Real life intervened.

But my sense has always been that the Galaxy-class, as originally fielded in 2360s, was a powerful and respectable vessel. Certainly the most powerful of any other class of starship then in Starfleet service. But it was, in my view, not as powerful as it could have been. Rather than being as powerful as the spaceframe and power systems could make it, the ship was probably designed to be as powerful as Starfleet's experts felt it would need to be.

Recall the situation around the time the Galaxies were entering service. A peaceful, allied Klingon Empire. The Romulans in total isolation. No contact yet with the Borg or Dominion. Some fighting with the Cardassians, sure, and other powers, but no one that really could rival the Federation in an all-out war, if it came down to it. The Galaxies were designed in peacetime, and I imagine that their tactical systems were designed by people thinking, "OK, well, how much firepower does this thing need to make it the strongest ship in the fleet and make sure it's competitive with anything else operating in the region? Let's figure out what that much firepower is and go with that."

But, in short order, the Romulans were back, the Borg were around, the Klingons went apeshit and the Dominion showed up. I think the Galaxies we saw kicking so much ass in DS9 were the ones that Starfleet had outfitted to maximize the combat capability of the class, rather than just meet the bureaucratic requirements of the design tender. And that was probably a very substantial increase in firepower indeed (and was probably also done to most every ship in Starfleet that was capable of it).
I absolutely agree. I think your theory is by far the best one I've seen. The Enterprise-D was a peacetime ship, whereas the kickass Galaxies we see in DS9 are true warships.
For all intents and purposes, though, it's the same peacetime design, only that the Enterprise-D belonged to the first batch of ships and the next batch featured some improvements that would be expected in any design after a few years of service (although on a case-by-case basis). I don't think starship designs are static--they evolve over time and incorporate new technologies and ideas along the way.

Had the Enterprise-D not fallen at Veridian III, she may have been upgraded and might even have been in the process of being so at the start of Generations if the new bridge module (and perhaps even a new stellar cartography lab) was a first step.
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Old January 16 2014, 03:50 AM   #142
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

For all intents and purposes, though, it's the same peacetime design, only that the Enterprise-D belonged to the first batch of ships and the next batch featured some improvements that would be expected in any design after a few years of service (although on a case-by-case basis). I don't think starship designs are static--they evolve over time and incorporate new technologies and ideas along the way.

Had the Enterprise-D not fallen at Veridian III, she may have been upgraded and might even have been in the process of being so at the start of Generations if the new bridge module (and perhaps even a new stellar cartography lab) was a first step.
Yeah, sort of. I mean, sure, clearly the design of any ship that's in sustained production will evolve, just as specific ships will evolve as systems are upgraded and swapped out. Absolutely. But what I'm talking about is more than just replacing phaser coil 46 with the slightly improved phaser coil 47. I'm talking less than a rebuild of the class, but more than just a gradual evolving. The Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place, and I'm sure Starfleet responded by making sure its most powerful ships became more powerful still.
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Old January 16 2014, 06:41 AM   #143
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Matt4511 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

For all intents and purposes, though, it's the same peacetime design, only that the Enterprise-D belonged to the first batch of ships and the next batch featured some improvements that would be expected in any design after a few years of service (although on a case-by-case basis). I don't think starship designs are static--they evolve over time and incorporate new technologies and ideas along the way.

Had the Enterprise-D not fallen at Veridian III, she may have been upgraded and might even have been in the process of being so at the start of Generations if the new bridge module (and perhaps even a new stellar cartography lab) was a first step.
Yeah, sort of. I mean, sure, clearly the design of any ship that's in sustained production will evolve, just as specific ships will evolve as systems are upgraded and swapped out. Absolutely. But what I'm talking about is more than just replacing phaser coil 46 with the slightly improved phaser coil 47. I'm talking less than a rebuild of the class, but more than just a gradual evolving. The Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place, and I'm sure Starfleet responded by making sure its most powerful ships became more powerful still.
I think that any improvements in the Galaxy class were already in the works before the Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place. As soon as a new design is launched, Starfleet is already thinking of ways to make it better.
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Old January 16 2014, 04:30 PM   #144
Matt4511
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Matt4511 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post

For all intents and purposes, though, it's the same peacetime design, only that the Enterprise-D belonged to the first batch of ships and the next batch featured some improvements that would be expected in any design after a few years of service (although on a case-by-case basis). I don't think starship designs are static--they evolve over time and incorporate new technologies and ideas along the way.

Had the Enterprise-D not fallen at Veridian III, she may have been upgraded and might even have been in the process of being so at the start of Generations if the new bridge module (and perhaps even a new stellar cartography lab) was a first step.
Yeah, sort of. I mean, sure, clearly the design of any ship that's in sustained production will evolve, just as specific ships will evolve as systems are upgraded and swapped out. Absolutely. But what I'm talking about is more than just replacing phaser coil 46 with the slightly improved phaser coil 47. I'm talking less than a rebuild of the class, but more than just a gradual evolving. The Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place, and I'm sure Starfleet responded by making sure its most powerful ships became more powerful still.
I think that any improvements in the Galaxy class were already in the works before the Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place. As soon as a new design is launched, Starfleet is already thinking of ways to make it better.
No, I don't think that really holds up. Again, you're right in a technical sense, in that all ships and classes will evolve. But I think the Federation, given a rapidly changing strategic environment, wouldn't just shrug and say, "Hey, our ships are improving all the time, anyway." They'd ask themselves what they could do over and above that general, gradual evolving of ships to make sure Starfleet kept pace with whatever was out there. There's no reason these processes have to be mutually exclusive, but it seems odd to me that we'd assume that Starfleet would place its trust entirely in gradual change and not bother trying to adapt to unforeseen circumstances.
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Old January 16 2014, 04:45 PM   #145
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Matt4511 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Matt4511 wrote: View Post

Yeah, sort of. I mean, sure, clearly the design of any ship that's in sustained production will evolve, just as specific ships will evolve as systems are upgraded and swapped out. Absolutely. But what I'm talking about is more than just replacing phaser coil 46 with the slightly improved phaser coil 47. I'm talking less than a rebuild of the class, but more than just a gradual evolving. The Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place, and I'm sure Starfleet responded by making sure its most powerful ships became more powerful still.
I think that any improvements in the Galaxy class were already in the works before the Alpha Quadrant became a meaner place. As soon as a new design is launched, Starfleet is already thinking of ways to make it better.
No, I don't think that really holds up.
Sure, it does and quite well. There's nothing onscreen that says it doesn't.

For all intents and purposes, what we see of later Galaxy-class was going to happen anyway as lessons learned from earlier ships are naturally incorporated into newer ones (the Enterprise was probably an improvement over the Galaxy and a newer Galaxy-class ship would surely be an improvement over the Enterprise). As I said in an earlier post, had things gone differently, the Enterprise would likely have received these upgrades as well.
"Hey, our ships are improving all the time, anyway." They'd ask themselves what they could do over and above that general, gradual evolving of ships to make sure Starfleet kept pace with whatever was out there. There's no reason these processes have to be mutually exclusive, but it seems odd to me that we'd assume that Starfleet would place its trust entirely in gradual change and not bother trying to adapt to unforeseen circumstances.
Nah, it's simply a case of keeping ships up to date as much as possible.
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Old January 16 2014, 04:56 PM   #146
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

The DS9 Galaxies are only a few years younger than the E-D. Even further, the Galaxies in DS9 performed much better in comparison, which would indicate some kind of large-scale wartime improvement, rather than simple evolution of design.
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Old January 16 2014, 06:13 PM   #147
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

It doesn't have to be a large-scale wartime improvement, though. The Borg and the subsequent Dominion War really didn't have to justify an upgrade of the design or the scrapping of the Galaxy-class' original mission. New ideas come along and are just incorporated with sometimes it being a case of good timing (I could see the first of the uprated Galaxy-class ships being built even before Wolf 359).
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Old January 16 2014, 10:52 PM   #148
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It doesn't have to be a large-scale wartime improvement, though. The Borg and the subsequent Dominion War really didn't have to justify an upgrade of the design or the scrapping of the Galaxy-class' original mission. New ideas come along and are just incorporated with sometimes it being a case of good timing (I could see the first of the uprated Galaxy-class ships being built even before Wolf 359).
But upgrades and improvements that were scheduled to happen anyway are, by definition, not reactions to changing circumstances. And I think it's odd to assume that Starfleet wouldn't have aggressively responded to the changing circumstances.
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Old January 17 2014, 02:05 AM   #149
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Matt4511 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
It doesn't have to be a large-scale wartime improvement, though. The Borg and the subsequent Dominion War really didn't have to justify an upgrade of the design or the scrapping of the Galaxy-class' original mission. New ideas come along and are just incorporated with sometimes it being a case of good timing (I could see the first of the uprated Galaxy-class ships being built even before Wolf 359).
But upgrades and improvements that were scheduled to happen anyway are, by definition, not reactions to changing circumstances.
Actually, upgrades and improvements can occur at any time, even before certain circumstances.
And I think it's odd to assume that Starfleet wouldn't have aggressively responded to the changing circumstances.
Who says they didn't? It just that it doesn't necessarily have to involve a sudden beefing up of the Galaxy-class. That could have already been in the works due to lessons learned from the first batch of ships deployed (the same was true as far back as the NX-class when lessons learned from NX-01 Enterprise were incorporated into NX-02 Columbia).
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Old January 17 2014, 10:01 AM   #150
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

When war broke out, Starfleet would likely have looked at their resources and ways to improve it.

During peacetime, the Galaxy class was a bit of a jack of all trades, don't get me wrong it had powerful defensive and offensive abilities, but at the same time they had a ton of equipment and space dedicated to exploration, science labs recreational facilities etc.

For the war they would have removed all families, replaced most of the science personel with security and soldiers, it's not hard to imagine each galaxy coming with its own batallion of 2000 troops. Shuttles would be replaced with squadrons of fighters, science equipment would be stripped out and replaced with armouries and non essential equipment would be stripped and replaced with extra weaponary and generators for more powerful shielding.

The Galaxy was a versatile ship and as large as it was, ideal for conversion from a multi mission explorer to a heavy cruiser or dreadnaught
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