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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 19 2013, 01:41 PM   #166
Alidar Jarok
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Ríu ríu, chíu wrote: View Post
Since I've never seen nuWho, maybe there's something obvious that I've missed in the meantime, but I have to ask. Even if more energy was pumped into a Time Lord body, surely there would one day come a time when that body simply couldn't handle the stresses of more regeneration? I always used to think THAT was the reason Time Lords could only regenerate 12 times - meaning, that's all their bodies could handle.

Or to put it another way: You can't stay awake forever by just drinking loads of coffee - sooner or later you'll have to sleep. Wouldn't regeneration be something similar? OUR bodies can't handle staying awake 24/7 - the stresses would kill us. Same thing here, I would think.
I don't think there's anything indicating that. In fact, the Master has gotten new regenerations several times, suggesting it's just a thing that's a possibility. it has never been suggested that there's a cap on regenerations beyond the natural cap of 13 that can be overridden by Time Lords.
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Old December 19 2013, 03:41 PM   #167
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I don't see a contradiction between the two ideas, though. Sure, the strain of successive regenerations could permanently and irrevocably damage a body, but so would, say, dying of old age or being vaporized in a fire or being disintegrated by the Daleks. But the Master managed to come back from at least two of those. In fiction, any normally "permanent" demise can be reversed under exceptional circumstances -- and fiction has a way of focusing on exceptional circumstances rather than normal ones. We can talk about it being possible to give a Time Lord a new regeneration cycle, but we should take care to remember that that doesn't make it routine or easy.

As for the rationale of why a mechanism for healing would cause cumulative damage, that makes sense to me, because no process is perfect. Surgery can heal you or save your life, but it's also extremely stressful on the body and thus dangerous as well. Exercise can strengthen your body, but athletes' constant exertion over decades causes cumulative damage as well and eventually the negative effects overwhelm the positive ones. So I can see how regeneration could become cumulatively more difficult over time. Indeed, it does seem that the Doctor's regenerations have been getting more energetic. His first couple that we saw were rather gentle, but then we started to see them happening with bursts of light, then lightning discharges in his seventh regeneration, then these bursts of golden energy that got progressively bigger until his most recent regeneration trashed the TARDIS. Maybe it takes his body more effort to regenerate itself each time and it's reaching a point of diminishing returns.
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Old December 19 2013, 04:20 PM   #168
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Why do you assume Eccleston would've replaced the War Doctor? Maybe he had an outline for a version of the story in which the War Doctor interacted with all three of his subsequent selves.
Well, oops, it turns out that Eccleston would have been in the War Doctor's place if he'd appeared -- but Moffat feels it worked better the way it turned out.

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/what-if...50th-56889.htm
Asked if it would have been Eccleston ending the Time War instead: “Yes, but do you know, I was always nervous of that one, because it doesn’t fit with [2005's] Rose at all.

“[Eccleston] is a brand new Doctor in Rose, he’s absolutely, definitely new. It couldn’t have been is who pushed the button in the Time War, cos that’s a new man, very explicitly, in that episode. I also had trouble, I have to be honest, imagining it being Paul McGann’s Doctor.

“So all of this led me to the idea that if you’re going to sell to the Not-We audience a Doctor who essentially they haven’t seen before, then you have a freer hand than saying it has to be one of the ones you’ve already had. And it was predicated in getting an enormous star to be able to do it. We got John Hurt, so that was cool! Think of the fuss it’s created for us!”
I wonder, though, if they could've found an alternate role for Eccleston if he'd agreed to make a brief appearance late in the game. My thinking is that in the climactic all-the-Doctors sequence, he could've been the one who showed up and contacted the Gallifrey War Council, instead of John Guilor's First Doctor voiceover. He could've had a fair-sized cameo before and during the sequence with all the other Doctors swooping in. And then he could've shown up again once Hurt regenerated into him.
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Old December 19 2013, 11:29 PM   #169
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Why do you assume Eccleston would've replaced the War Doctor? Maybe he had an outline for a version of the story in which the War Doctor interacted with all three of his subsequent selves.
Well, oops, it turns out that Eccleston would have been in the War Doctor's place if he'd appeared -- but Moffat feels it worked better the way it turned out.

http://www.doctorwhotv.co.uk/what-if...50th-56889.htm
Asked if it would have been Eccleston ending the Time War instead: “Yes, but do you know, I was always nervous of that one, because it doesn’t fit with [2005's] Rose at all.

“[Eccleston] is a brand new Doctor in Rose, he’s absolutely, definitely new. It couldn’t have been is who pushed the button in the Time War, cos that’s a new man, very explicitly, in that episode. I also had trouble, I have to be honest, imagining it being Paul McGann’s Doctor.

“So all of this led me to the idea that if you’re going to sell to the Not-We audience a Doctor who essentially they haven’t seen before, then you have a freer hand than saying it has to be one of the ones you’ve already had. And it was predicated in getting an enormous star to be able to do it. We got John Hurt, so that was cool! Think of the fuss it’s created for us!”
I already posted that upthread.
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Old December 20 2013, 01:05 AM   #170
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
It seems to me that there are four causes so far:

Old Age
Enforced Regeneration
Trauma
Poison

The interesting one is poison. Obviously, regeneration must purge the body of the poison, otherwise he'd keep dying until he ran out of regenerations. So, if he were to die of a fatal, communicable, disease, the same would likely occur. Or would the new body simply be immune to the poison or disease? This could lead to an interesting situation where the Doctor contracts a disease, regenerates, and is subsequently a source of antibodies.


Suppose he died of decapitation or a severe head injury? This is a specific case of trauma, but one still has to wonder how it would effect the next regeneration. It would depend upon the specifics of the regeneration process, of course, but it's possible that the next Doctor could be retarded or at least amnesiac.

This is an interesting train of thought.
The thing is, we found out in Lets Kill Hitler, that there are poisons that WILL stop his ability to regenerate. It was only because River was willing to give him her remaining regenerations that he was able to be saved (without having to regenerate himself I might add).


Also, we've seen the Doctor have a body part cut off, and it grow back, so why not his head (even though I suspect that will cause him to regenerate)?
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Old December 20 2013, 02:25 AM   #171
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

cincygal wrote: View Post
Also, we've seen the Doctor have a body part cut off, and it grow back, so why not his head (even though I suspect that will cause him to regenerate)?
It only grew back because he was still "in his regeneration cycle". Had he lost it during a later episode, it would've been permanent. Or at least RTD would have needed to come up with different technobabble to explain it.
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Old December 20 2013, 05:02 AM   #172
Alidar Jarok
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Although, that being said, the fact that Tennant's redirecting his regeneration energy into his hand now is a regeneration at least closes that loophole. Otherwise, every Time Lord should cut off a hand first thing in order to save themselves later on.

And to be fair to the needing a technobabble explanation, I don't think the hand would have been chopped off unless he planned to have it grow back. He didn't come up with something to write himself out of a corner he boxed himself into.
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Old December 20 2013, 05:10 AM   #173
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
And to be fair to the needing a technobabble explanation, I don't think the hand would have been chopped off unless he planned to have it grow back. He didn't come up with something to write himself out of a corner he boxed himself into.
Well, if you mean the Doctor growing a new hand, then that goes without saying, since it grew back moments after it was cut off. But if you mean the hand growing a new Doctor, I doubt RTD had thought that far ahead by that point. More likely he was seeding it for Torchwood. Or, heck, maybe he just chopped off and regrew the hand because it was a cool moment and a clever new thing to do with regeneration, and then afterward he thought, "Hmm, what happened to the hand that was cut off?"
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Old December 20 2013, 10:45 AM   #174
RJDonner&Blitzen
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

cincygal wrote: View Post
RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
It seems to me that there are four causes so far:

Old Age
Enforced Regeneration
Trauma
Poison

The interesting one is poison. Obviously, regeneration must purge the body of the poison, otherwise he'd keep dying until he ran out of regenerations. So, if he were to die of a fatal, communicable, disease, the same would likely occur. Or would the new body simply be immune to the poison or disease? This could lead to an interesting situation where the Doctor contracts a disease, regenerates, and is subsequently a source of antibodies.


Suppose he died of decapitation or a severe head injury? This is a specific case of trauma, but one still has to wonder how it would effect the next regeneration. It would depend upon the specifics of the regeneration process, of course, but it's possible that the next Doctor could be retarded or at least amnesiac.

This is an interesting train of thought.
The thing is, we found out in Lets Kill Hitler, that there are poisons that WILL stop his ability to regenerate. It was only because River was willing to give him her remaining regenerations that he was able to be saved (without having to regenerate himself I might add).
True. I suppose, like injuries, some poisons are so serious that he can't bounce back.

Also, we've seen the Doctor have a body part cut off, and it grow back, so why not his head (even though I suspect that will cause him to regenerate)?
Well, it would depend on if the head grew a body or the body grew a head. If the head grows a body, no problem; if the body grows a head, it would be empty. If both happens, then the Doctor has a full-grown infant twin. It would be an interesting twist to use in a story-- maybe not with the Doctor, but with another Time Lord.

Although David Tennant's human twin was not mindless. Did they ever actually explain that?
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Old December 20 2013, 03:31 PM   #175
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Although David Tennant's human twin was not mindless. Did they ever actually explain that?
Regenerationy-wenerationy. Like so many things in DW, it was -- quite fittingly in this case -- a handwave.
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Old December 20 2013, 03:53 PM   #176
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
And to be fair to the needing a technobabble explanation, I don't think the hand would have been chopped off unless he planned to have it grow back. He didn't come up with something to write himself out of a corner he boxed himself into.
Well, if you mean the Doctor growing a new hand, then that goes without saying, since it grew back moments after it was cut off. But if you mean the hand growing a new Doctor, I doubt RTD had thought that far ahead by that point. More likely he was seeding it for Torchwood. Or, heck, maybe he just chopped off and regrew the hand because it was a cool moment and a clever new thing to do with regeneration, and then afterward he thought, "Hmm, what happened to the hand that was cut off?"
I meant the former. It was in response to someone saying that, had it happened later in the season, he would have needed a different technobabble explanation. I was just pointing out that the technobabble explanation deserves a little more leniency in a case like that.
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Old December 20 2013, 04:54 PM   #177
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I meant the former. It was in response to someone saying that, had it happened later in the season, he would have needed a different technobabble explanation. I was just pointing out that the technobabble explanation deserves a little more leniency in a case like that.
Which, as the person you were replying to, I have to admit is a very good point!
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Old December 21 2013, 11:28 AM   #178
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Technobabble gets a bad rap.

Christopher wrote: View Post
RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Although David Tennant's human twin was not mindless. Did they ever actually explain that?
Regenerationy-wenerationy. Like so many things in DW, it was -- quite fittingly in this case -- a handwave.
Yeah, that's fine, but it kind of sets a precedent that negates my mindless twin idea. Still, there could be a couple of non-mindless twin Time Lords out there.
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Old December 21 2013, 11:42 AM   #179
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
Although David Tennant's human twin was not mindless. Did they ever actually explain that?
Why would he be mindless? The Doctor's been cloned before and the clone wasn't mindless. The meta crisis Doctor was partially formed by Donna when she reached out to the hand.
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Old December 21 2013, 08:05 PM   #180
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I'm not familiar with prior cloning stories in DW, but cloning would not automatically transfer or copy memories. Real cloning, of course, would merely create an embryo which is a genetic duplicate of the clone donor, but even a process that clones an adult duplicate from a mature fragment would have no source for duplicating memories.
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