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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 18 2013, 05:03 PM   #151
Christopher
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
Weren't the Timelords giving new regen cycles during the war? Well, the Doctor was there. Maybe he got that too just by being there.
I keep hearing people come up with "Well, maybe he already has more lives for some simple reason" explanations, but I don't think there's any way the show would just shrug off the issue so cavalierly. When it's addressed, it's going to be a big deal, and it's going to be something that happens in the story itself. It's not just going to be some throwaway "Oh, he already gained extra lives in the War/when River resurrected him," because that would be a total copout dramatically. There's no story to tell if the event already happened.
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Old December 18 2013, 05:47 PM   #152
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Just like the show would NEVER just skip to the Doctor's final incarnation without the dramatic build up. It's going to be something that happens in the story itself and not just some throwaway. That would be a total copout dramatically. There's no story to tell if the event already happened.

Oh wait, never mind . . .

(Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm just giving you a hard time because I know we disagree on that point. I agree with your point that the Time Lords probably didn't already give the Doctor more regeneration energy.)
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Old December 18 2013, 06:38 PM   #153
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

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Did anyone get the sense The Doctor was actually working with The Time Lords though? We didn't get to see much, but, the way he just popped in, and spranginto action, I didn't get the sense he was actually working with them. Maybe not necessarily working against them, but, certainly not an Agent for them doing missions of their choosing.
In the original series, no, of course not. But I assumed that in the depths of the war, the Doctor and the Time Lords ended up fighting on the same side and were cooperating in the final days. That is what the dialogue in those early-revival episodes seemed to suggest, until "The End of Time" made it clear that the Doctor had considered both factions his enemies.
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Old December 18 2013, 08:07 PM   #154
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Did anyone get the sense The Doctor was actually working with The Time Lords though? We didn't get to see much, but, the way he just popped in, and spranginto action, I didn't get the sense he was actually working with them. Maybe not necessarily working against them, but, certainly not an Agent for them doing missions of their choosing.
In the original series, no, of course not. But I assumed that in the depths of the war, the Doctor and the Time Lords ended up fighting on the same side and were cooperating in the final days. That is what the dialogue in those early-revival episodes seemed to suggest, until "The End of Time" made it clear that the Doctor had considered both factions his enemies.
In The Original Series, he actually did go on at least the mission to Skaro (Of course he was pretty much forced into it) to prevent the creation of The Daleks, but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.

It seemed like, yea, he was out in The Universe helping folks who were victims of the Time War, but, I didn't get the sense he was cooperating/coordinating with them based upon what we saw in The Special (Though it's probably likely that through most of it, his priorities to prevent victimization of others by The Daleks' actions, coincided with the Time Lords, and there's no evidence that before he stole the Moment that he was actively working against them, but, I didn't get the sense they were actually working together).
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Old December 18 2013, 09:51 PM   #155
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

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but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.
Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.
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Old December 18 2013, 10:01 PM   #156
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.
Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.
Sure. But, my post about not having the impression the War Doctor actually worked with the Time Lords, was in response to idea that The Time Lords were handing out New Regeneration Cycles (IE: That doesn't seem like an option for the Doctor, since he doesn't appear to have been "On Their Payroll" to earn a new set of Regenerations.)
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Old December 18 2013, 10:26 PM   #157
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^Oh, I see. Yeah, I agree. The General was familiar with the Doctor, but clearly saw him as a renegade, a madman. I don't see them working together. (Although, admittedly, the High Council did recruit the Master for help in "The Five Doctors" and offered him a new regeneration cycle -- and then apparently did so again and followed through on the offer in the Time War.)
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Old December 19 2013, 02:07 AM   #158
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
but, no, I was talking about in The Anniversary Special itself. The Time Lords seemed surprised to see him pop up.
Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.
Sure. But, my post about not having the impression the War Doctor actually worked with the Time Lords, was in response to idea that The Time Lords were handing out New Regeneration Cycles (IE: That doesn't seem like an option for the Doctor, since he doesn't appear to have been "On Their Payroll" to earn a new set of Regenerations.)
The Doctors including Peter Capaldi's Doctor changed time and saved Gallifrey and Matt Smith's Doctor can no longer regenerate so it would be in their best interest to give the Doctor the energy needed for regeneration.
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Old December 19 2013, 04:25 AM   #159
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

DWF wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post

Well, yes, of course, that's what we now know to be the case, and I'm perfectly well aware of how new information has changed our perceptions. That's the whole point. I'm talking about what I used to believe about the Time War, years ago, based on what those older episodes suggested, as a reminder that what we now know about the War wasn't always known. At the time, back in 2005, the impression I got from Eccleston's episodes was that he and the Time Lords had acted together. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that I knew otherwise.
Sure. But, my post about not having the impression the War Doctor actually worked with the Time Lords, was in response to idea that The Time Lords were handing out New Regeneration Cycles (IE: That doesn't seem like an option for the Doctor, since he doesn't appear to have been "On Their Payroll" to earn a new set of Regenerations.)
The Doctors including Peter Capaldi's Doctor changed time and saved Gallifrey and Matt Smith's Doctor can no longer regenerate so it would be in their best interest to give the Doctor the energy needed for regeneration.
But that couldn't have already happened, they weren't functional when he did that? That would have to be something to come once he frees them. <Head explodes from the Temporal Causality>
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Old December 19 2013, 05:24 AM   #160
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Since I've never seen nuWho, maybe there's something obvious that I've missed in the meantime, but I have to ask. Even if more energy was pumped into a Time Lord body, surely there would one day come a time when that body simply couldn't handle the stresses of more regeneration? I always used to think THAT was the reason Time Lords could only regenerate 12 times - meaning, that's all their bodies could handle.

Or to put it another way: You can't stay awake forever by just drinking loads of coffee - sooner or later you'll have to sleep. Wouldn't regeneration be something similar? OUR bodies can't handle staying awake 24/7 - the stresses would kill us. Same thing here, I would think.
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Old December 19 2013, 05:52 AM   #161
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
Since I've never seen nuWho, maybe there's something obvious that I've missed in the meantime, but I have to ask. Even if more energy was pumped into a Time Lord body, surely there would one day come a time when that body simply couldn't handle the stresses of more regeneration? I always used to think THAT was the reason Time Lords could only regenerate 12 times - meaning, that's all their bodies could handle.

Or to put it another way: You can't stay awake forever by just drinking loads of coffee - sooner or later you'll have to sleep. Wouldn't regeneration be something similar? OUR bodies can't handle staying awake 24/7 - the stresses would kill us. Same thing here, I would think.
There's no definite answer. Like everything else in Doctor Who, regenerations mostly exist for the sake of telling entertaining stories, not to speculate about the biology of actual aliens.
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Old December 19 2013, 05:56 AM   #162
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Nonetheless, it's a great analogy.
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Old December 19 2013, 08:15 AM   #163
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
Or to put it another way: You can't stay awake forever by just drinking loads of coffee - sooner or later you'll have to sleep. Wouldn't regeneration be something similar? OUR bodies can't handle staying awake 24/7 - the stresses would kill us. Same thing here, I would think.
Maybe. But I always figured it was more similar to how the ovaries don't (or at least were thought not to - looks like recent research shows we may have been wrong?) produce more eggs during the woman's lifetime. Once they're gone, they're gone. I kinda figured that "regeneration packets" worked the same way.

What's the point of a process designed to renew, revitalize, and heal when it just damages the body further each time? It seems contradictory, especially since each time the Doctor generally gets younger. I'd be more likely to believe that line of thought if he were progressively getting older, meaning the process didn't work as well each time.
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Old December 19 2013, 08:45 AM   #164
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I have always seen the whole issue of the regeneration limit to be, well, arbitrary. The purpose of regeneration is to allow production of the show to survive changes of the lead actor. Rather, survival of the show is some combination of ratings, funding, support from the BBC and willing production crew. This 12 regeneration limit was originally introduced as a plot device and explanation of the Master's new form in the wake of Roger Delgado's untimely death. I don't think the producers at the time envisioned that the program would last long enough to see its "final" incarnation -- and even if it did, the show would long since have become the responsibility of another production team. In fact, most subsequent references of this regeneration limit were in relation to this character, not the Doctor. And ultimately, they resorted to various methods of handwaving to sustain the character and allow several actors to portray him.

It is a fact that Peter Capaldi will play the Doctor after Matt Smith. And should the show stay successful enough, another actor will one day replace Capaldi as the Doctor. Whether the producers say he gets a new set or regenerations, or Capaldi's doctor is a one-off bonus regeneration leaving him yet again at the final regeneration, in the grand scheme, I see it making little difference. The doctor has frequently reacted to a peril as if there was a real chance of final death without a regeneration. Which makes the concept of regeneration sort of analogous to a Kevlar vest as a plot device- it can protect against most shots, but a head-shot could still do him in. So the writers simply never let him suffer a headshot. Regeneration is a great way to allow a change of actor, to make the sendoff of the previous actor an event and the arrival of the new actor something fresh and exciting. But as a plot device in and of itself, it's just rubbish.
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Old December 19 2013, 10:51 AM   #165
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

ATimson wrote: View Post
Maybe. But I always figured it was more similar to how the ovaries don't (or at least were thought not to - looks like recent research shows we may have been wrong?) produce more eggs during the woman's lifetime. Once they're gone, they're gone. I kinda figured that "regeneration packets" worked the same way.
Hmm. This may explain why the working title of the Christmas Special was "Night of the IVF."
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