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Old December 14 2013, 02:58 PM   #106
teacake
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

A. Kes is super space dolphin and as she dies she hurls Voyager almost-ish back to earth.

B. Sarah is fine, but she is not mine. Too self referential. I abstain.
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Old December 14 2013, 03:23 PM   #107
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?
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Old December 14 2013, 04:00 PM   #108
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Kes has a ton of oddly untapped story potential. In that respect she was more interesting than Kim and her voice was just delicious. I do believe that 7 would have been male if Wang had left because Trek universally operates its (at least) 2 men for every woman policy. Dunno why but that's the way it's been since the sixties.

For my part I have no issue if Kes' story had come to an end with her natural life-span or her apotheosis. My problem was them doing it prior to Year of Hell. They should have kept Lien on alongside 7 for the first half of the season. They could both have been in the credits even if they did not appear in every episode. They could have used her properly in the episodes in wyich she appeared rather than in tepid cameos and Kes' apotheosis could have taken place as part of the resolution to the timey wimey plot, closing that loop.

Alternatively she could have just appeared in a special guest or also starring capacity in the first episodes and year of hell.
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Old December 14 2013, 04:56 PM   #109
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Lance wrote: View Post
Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?
Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...
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Old December 14 2013, 08:43 PM   #110
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Garret did get it worse. He got it 4 years worse.
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Old December 14 2013, 10:38 PM   #111
Lance
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Jennifer Lien got early release. Garrett Wang had to do a life stretch.
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Old December 14 2013, 11:24 PM   #112
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I agree that Kes's exit in The Gift was pretty good. I wasn't ready for her to go, and I was intrigued by the potential for a new friendship with Seven, but still, Kes left on a high note. I'd have ben much happier if they'd left her at that point. The Fury just made me mad. Clearly.
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Old December 15 2013, 02:48 AM   #113
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

You're all just intimidated by that much Wang.
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Old December 15 2013, 03:52 AM   #114
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
You're all just intimidated by that much Wang.
Oh, I can handle the Wang.
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Old December 15 2013, 04:22 AM   #115
exodus
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?
Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...
1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.
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Old December 15 2013, 04:25 AM   #116
borgboy
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

exodus wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
Would I be 'Lien' if I told you the bottom line was Berman just decided he wanted Wang?
Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...
1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.
That's on the writers, as I think Kes was an interesting character with lots of story potential. Our Lynx wrote a Kes centered unpublished Voyager novel. I don't think a good writer would have that hard a time coming up with the occasional Kes centered story. Then again, they kept Harry and he rarely got any memorable stories focusing on him.
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Old December 15 2013, 04:34 AM   #117
Lance
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

exodus wrote: View Post
1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.


2takesfrakes is right, though. Berman didn't want Wang. But it soon became obvious the studio was going to force him to have Wang, after Wang was voted the best looking Wang in a magazine. So, he ended up sacking Lien, and having Wang instead.
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Old December 15 2013, 04:42 AM   #118
exodus
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

borgboy wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Sir..........................................

Kes wasn't Roddenberry's decision, or one forced on them by the fans ... Berman and company wanted her onboard! What happened with her character after, the awkward scenes - particularly painful, were the ones with Neelix - the half-started ideas ... like they kept throwing shit at the wall to see what would stick with her. It makes you wonder what they were thinking in the beginning, when they came up with her, in the first place?

Just ... follow your original intentions? What went wrong? What happened? I just don't get it. Jennifer Lien just got jerked around, it seems like, as did fans of hers. Garrett Wang got the same deal, really, I know ... maybe in some ways, he got it worse than she did. But ... I don't care about Wang! Forgive me, Jesus ... I know that's not a very Christian thing to say, but ...
1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.
That's on the writers, as I think Kes was an interesting character with lots of story potential. Our Lynx wrote a Kes centered unpublished Voyager novel. I don't think a good writer would have that hard a time coming up with the occasional Kes centered story. Then again, they kept Harry and he rarely got any memorable stories focusing on him.
Lynx is writing stories in retrospect.
It's easy to write a good story if you're rewriting what's been done.
Lynx is not part of a soapbox of 5 writers in a room each with 5 stories/ideas each week that may or may not be better than the 3 ideas/stories about Kes.
Having ideas for one or two Kes based stories doesn't compare with having to have 3 new ones to present for consideration every week, for 4 months.

Say what you want but those writers were good enough to beat out hundreds of other writers and their get their stories made into TV episodes.

You Kes fans wanna point fingers and accuse TPTB to purposely doing things against you(Fury) but you don't even have a clue how their job works.
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Old December 15 2013, 04:43 AM   #119
exodus
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Lance wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.


2takesfrakes is right, though. Berman didn't want Wang. But it soon became obvious the studio was going to force him to have Wang, after Wang was voted the best looking Wang in a magazine. So, he ended up sacking Lien, and having Wang instead.
Wang is a powerful thing
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Old December 15 2013, 05:08 AM   #120
borgboy
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

exodus wrote: View Post
borgboy wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
1) I'm under the impression "Berman wanted Wang" is a dick joke.

2) As far as Kes, I think they had ideas about her in "Caretaker" but I think they felt she be a character that kinda wrote itself. I think they were expecting inspiration about her to come as show played out but it didn't.
That's on the writers, as I think Kes was an interesting character with lots of story potential. Our Lynx wrote a Kes centered unpublished Voyager novel. I don't think a good writer would have that hard a time coming up with the occasional Kes centered story. Then again, they kept Harry and he rarely got any memorable stories focusing on him.
Lynx is writing stories in retrospect.
It's easy to write a good story if you're rewriting what's been done.
Lynx is not part of a soapbox of 5 writers in a room each with 5 stories/ideas each week that may or may not be better than the 3 ideas/stories about Kes.
Having ideas for one or two Kes based stories doesn't compare with having to have 3 new ones to present for consideration every week, for 4 months.

Say what you want but those writers were good enough to beat out hundreds of other writers and their get their stories made into TV episodes.

You Kes fans wanna point fingers and accuse TPTB to purposely doing things against you(Fury) but you don't even have a clue how their job works.
I don't have to understand every aspect of a televison writer's job to know that I think it's ridiculous to expect us to believe they couldn't write good stories for her, but could do so for Neelix, Kim, etc.
I think Lynx wrote her novel during the run of Voyager, but I don't see where that's pertinent. Most episodes were stand alone, and I expect that her story would be telling a new story, not something in "retrospect".
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