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Old December 12 2013, 02:20 AM   #91
2takesfrakes
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Lynx wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
It's enough to make you lose your religion ...
I almost did.
Ah, Lynx ... don't despair. Like you, I just have to lump it. To be Frank & Ernest, I only own Season 3 - not because of Kes, I'm sorry to say, but rather for Rain Robinson. Had Sarah Silverman joined the cast, I think Rain and Kes would've become the very best of friends ... Voyager just seems to break the heart of anyone trying to find the best in it: Kes ... gone. Rain ... never joined ... Torres, with that hiddeous Rubber Forehead, distracting from the hotness that is Roxann Dawson ... the retention of Garret Wang ...
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Old December 12 2013, 02:27 AM   #92
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

My heart is quite unbroken thank you.
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Old December 12 2013, 04:17 AM   #93
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

To be honest, I found Kes to be only marginally more interesting than Harry. She had one really fascinating trait -her short lifespan- and the writers never did much of anything with it. Instead we got a couple of dime-a-dozen stories about her psychic abilities and a really cringeworthy outing about her ridiculous reproductive cycle.
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Old December 12 2013, 07:27 AM   #94
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
The injustice of it - the overwhelming injustice of it - how Life Imitates Art in that the beautiful, the talented, the delicious Jennifer Lien gets dropped from the show, whilst VOYAGER kept the useless Garrett Wang. It's enough to make you lose your religion ...

If either actor was all that, Star Trek wouldn't have been the apex of their budding careers. Out of the whole great featured cast of "American History X", she's the only one that never pushed forward in her career. Being fired from Star Trek is a joke when there were bigger and better productions out there waiting for her. Garrett was the one that got played being stuck in a role that would give him little respect as an actor in a job that would take his career nowhere. The only injustice Lien did was to herself by staying stagnate when a world of acting opportunity awaited her.

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Ah, Lynx ... don't despair. Like you, I just have to lump it. To be Frank & Ernest, I only own Season 3 - not because of Kes, I'm sorry to say, but rather for Rain Robinson. Had Sarah Silverman joined the cast, I think Rain and Kes would've become the very best of friends ... Voyager just seems to break the heart of anyone trying to find the best in it: Kes ... gone. Rain ... never joined ... Torres, with that hiddeous Rubber Forehead, distracting from the hotness that is Roxann Dawson ... the retention of Garret Wang ...
Oh Hell's Muthafuckin' No!!
Star Trek would have ruined Sarah Silverman's career and she could have never gone on to the wonderful career as a potty mouthed comic that she has now.
She's probably richer and more well known than anybody on the show due to it.
While "Future's End" is one of my favorite for her, America needed "I'm f*cking Matt Damon" more.
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Old December 12 2013, 11:25 AM   #95
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

exodus wrote: View Post
Star Trek would have ruined Sarah Silverman's career and she could have never gone on to the wonderful career as a potty mouthed comic that she has now. She's probably richer and more well known than anybody on the show due to it. While "Future's End" is one of my favorite for her, America needed "I'm f*cking Matt Damon" more.
And America needs Sarah Silverman! I am pleased to see I'm not alone in my appreciation of this intoxicating beauty! You're absolutely right about her career, of course.



Sarah has become an important figure in Hollywood, partly as a very visible celebrity, but mostly as a writer and box office draw. I love her little potty-mouth ways, as well, it's very endearing. What I like most about her is her performances, in anything she does. Even in a guest starring role, like Rain Robinson, her love of acting is evident. She seems to be a lot of fun to work with and be around. That's why the chemistry betwixt Rain and Tom Paris works so well. Why be a Prima Donna, it isn't necessary? She's on T.V., she's in the movies, what's there to be miserable about? It sure as hell beats working at a real job! That's the kind of attitude she projects and I'm glad STAR TREK got her to do VOYAGER ...
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Old December 13 2013, 08:26 AM   #96
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Star Trek would have ruined Sarah Silverman's career and she could have never gone on to the wonderful career as a potty mouthed comic that she has now. She's probably richer and more well known than anybody on the show due to it. While "Future's End" is one of my favorite for her, America needed "I'm f*cking Matt Damon" more.
And America needs Sarah Silverman! I am pleased to see I'm not alone in my appreciation of this intoxicating beauty! You're absolutely right about her career, of course.



Sarah has become an important figure in Hollywood, partly as a very visible celebrity, but mostly as a writer and box office draw. I love her little potty-mouth ways, as well, it's very endearing. What I like most about her is her performances, in anything she does. Even in a guest starring role, like Rain Robinson, her love of acting is evident. She seems to be a lot of fun to work with and be around. That's why the chemistry betwixt Rain and Tom Paris works so well. Why be a Prima Donna, it isn't necessary? She's on T.V., she's in the movies, what's there to be miserable about? It sure as hell beats working at a real job! That's the kind of attitude she projects and I'm glad STAR TREK got her to do VOYAGER ...
There is a downside to being a celeb, stalkers, no privacy, catty reviews.....especially about what you wear and don't dare go out without make up on. Lordy, child!!

...but yeah, Sarah Silverman is my girl yo!
I like her cause she seems like that type that can be girly girl so you can take her out to a good restaurant but enjoys watching Football with you and your guy friends.........and doesn't mind if you fart.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:32 PM   #97
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

exodus wrote: View Post
...but yeah, Sarah Silverman is my girl yo!
I like her cause she seems like that type that can be girly girl so you can take her out to a good restaurant but enjoys watching Football with you and your guy friends.........and doesn't mind if you fart.
Well-said, sir! Sarah represents what every man wants and the worst of that, the absolute worst of it is that ... she knows this.

AgentDreidel wrote: View Post
To be honest, I found Kes to be only marginally more interesting than Harry. She had one really fascinating trait -her short lifespan- and the writers never did much of anything with it. Instead we got a couple of dime-a-dozen stories about her psychic abilities and a really cringeworthy outing about her ridiculous reproductive cycle.
I, too, found "her ridiculous reproductive cycle" to be "cringeworthy." Her psychic abilities were only brushed upon, so it's hard to judge that. Still, I enjoyed her scenes with Tuvok mentoring her. I despised Berman's giving her a short lifespan. A couple years is long enough for rodents, because they're just prey items. But, I think that she should've been gal pals with Seven, that they could've complimented eachother, very well - not unlike T'Pol and Hoshi did. Kes had lots of potential, but "they" didn't feel like doing anything about it.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:17 PM   #98
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

ENOUGH with Sarah Silverman, enough ENOUGH!

Or, so I said some years back and I'm still on that train and I'm not getting off in a hurry.
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Old December 14 2013, 03:56 AM   #99
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I think there were interesting things they could've done with Kes's lifespan. She did meet the Ocampan colony whose people lived longer than the Caretaker's Ocampans, already setting up a situation where her lifespan could be expanded, and Kes seemed like a real prodigy, I think there's every chance she'd have found a way to extend her lifespan even longer.

I overall enjoyed the episode about Kes's reproduction, more for the deeper meanings explored about the subtext of reproduction issues than the weird parts of it. It's beyond ridiculous that her people could only breed once, it would have made the Ocampans extinct within a few generations. I assume that was something the Caretaker did to them. The way they gave birth with the back hump and everything wasn't very good. I think it would've been more fun if she wound up laying an egg. It would have to have been better than what we got at least.
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Old December 14 2013, 05:12 AM   #100
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I just had a thought about Neelix's Ocampan Lung.

When the Quicksilver being duplicated him... They became him, two equally awful things might have happened... First, as they were only copying him and not the extraneous Ocampan bits wandering about inside him, Quicksilver Neelix has no Lungs and dies immediately. Or 2, as the Quicksilver being maps and copies Neelix s/he also maps and copies Kes from her lung, after which full sized Kes manifests inside of and explodes out of Neelix, one upping John Hurt.

You know that there is another Silverman Teacake?

If Sarah doesn't take your fancy, how about Laura?

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Old December 14 2013, 06:10 AM   #101
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

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I think there were interesting things they could've done with Kes's lifespan. She did meet the Ocampan colony whose people lived longer than the Caretaker's Ocampans, already setting up a situation where her lifespan could be expanded, and Kes seemed like a real prodigy, I think there's every chance she'd have found a way to extend her lifespan even longer.
She shouldn't have lived longer.
It's what made the character alien and why she had to be so smart.
She had to live life in one day, her wisdom came from the fact she saw thought bullshit cause she didn't have the luxury to get caught up in pettiness. It's why she dumped Neelix. His weak over protective nature was beneath her. She was rolling her eyes at him in "Twisted".

Kes lasting all 7s and dying in the final ep. would have been a better and emotionally stirring finale than what we got in "Endgame". Imagine if Kes' good-bye in "The Gift" was actually in shows conclusion instead? There wouldn't have been a dry eye in the house and the Voyagers conclusion would have been raved about!
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Old December 14 2013, 07:00 AM   #102
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I can see the argument for Kes dying in the finale. If done well, I admit it probably would've been brilliant. I image thought they'd she'd transcend into a higher being at the last minute as she provided that last push Voyager needed to get to safety, so it would be a metaphorical death - very much like The Gift, as exodus suggests.
Yeah, that would've been brilliant.
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Old December 14 2013, 08:09 AM   #103
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

She doesn't just die.

Kes dies on Ocampa.

And Janeway had to take her there.

So it's Janeway in a shuttle this time, over kes' dead body, trying to get back to the AQ.

Without repeating all her old mistakes, she should be able to do it in half the time.

Actually...

{Marooned on Ocampa}

Janeway "Goodbye Kes, I loved you like a mother."

{Two Years later. San Francisco}

Press douche "Captain Janeway How did you get all the way back to Earth in Just two years???!!"

Janeway "Now that I've really had some time to think about it, it was that Kim Kid slowing me down the first time."
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Old December 14 2013, 12:53 PM   #104
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

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ENOUGH with Sarah Silverman, enough ENOUGH! Or, so I said some years back and I'm still on that train and I'm not getting off in a hurry.
teacake, why would you serve Sarah Silverman thus ... ?
Share it! Share your pain & gain strength, from the sharing.

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Old December 14 2013, 02:54 PM   #105
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

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I can see the argument for Kes dying in the finale. If done well, I admit it probably would've been brilliant. I image thought they'd she'd transcend into a higher being at the last minute as she provided that last push Voyager needed to get to safety, so it would be a metaphorical death - very much like The Gift, as exodus suggests.
Yeah, that would've been brilliant.
No!

I'm happy that we never had any melodramatic death scenes like that. Star Trek is about exploring and adventures, no syrupy soap opera. Those who like such melodramatic scenarios could watch any of the soap operas going on different channels.

Or experience it oneself by getting slowly bored to death by watching Stargate Universe!

Anyway, in the choice between two utterly bad scenarios, I do prefer her exit in "The Gift".

However, there were no reason at all to bring her back and humiliate her in "Fury".

As for her lifespan (the characters only flaw), it could have been prolonged. There were hints in some episodes, particularily in "Cold Fire" that such an option was possible.

And it did become possible-in the Kes story "Coming Home"!

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