RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,237
Posts: 5,438,673
Members: 24,958
Currently online: 605
Newest member: greatmovies

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Lounges & General Chat > Miscellaneous

Miscellaneous Discussion of non-Trek topics.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 7 2013, 03:09 PM   #31
Boo! Did I Scare Ya?
Admiral
 
Boo! Did I Scare Ya?'s Avatar
 
Location: bbailey861 - Kingston, ON
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

R.I.P. I'll let someone else judge. I'm certainly not qualified.
Boo! Did I Scare Ya? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 08:23 PM   #32
E-DUB
Captain
 
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

It is all well and good for us, in the comfort of our homes, to have abstract debates about the morality of this tactic or that. But faced with a struggle against such an inherently immoral regime as apartheid, the question isn't what tactics are justified, but what tactics aren't. But my feeling is that the worse Mandela was, the more powerful his ultimate growth and redemption.

(By the way, I feel that a program of drone strikes, properly executed, is a moral response to terrorism of the sort practiced by the likes of Al Quida because it is undeniably less messy than the alternative of actual war and, again properly executed, because it can limit casualties to actual enemies.)
E-DUB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 09:51 PM   #33
THE Robert Maxwell
Reports of my death...
 
THE Robert Maxwell's Avatar
 
Location: Robert Maxwell
View THE Robert Maxwell's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to THE Robert Maxwell Send a message via AIM to THE Robert Maxwell Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to THE Robert Maxwell Send a message via Yahoo to THE Robert Maxwell
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

Mandela didn't use violence against a peaceful, democratic regime. He used violence against a violent, repressive regime that used violence first. Responding to violence with violence can be appropriate, especially in the measured, targeted way Mandela did it.
__________________
Publishing all the news that's not fit to print, FROM BEYOND THE GRAVE!!!!
I has a blag.
THE Robert Maxwell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 07:15 AM   #34
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

Mister Spock wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but the man was a terrorist
... who successfully became the father of a nation and was embraced by the same Boers who had once reviled him, all without renouncing the principle of armed struggle. It's almost like "terrorist" is a largely meaningless nonsense term trotted out when the clueless want to demonize someone they don't remotely understand. The same kinds of clueless who mysteriously rarely have similar criteria for the likes of, say, George Washington.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 08:04 AM   #35
gturner
Admiral
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

George Washington won a conventional war against the world's superpower, and the British rate him the most competent enemy commander they ever faced, and they faced pretty much all of them. Mandela's genius was spending his time in prison learning about such men, and how you win, and how you unify a people after you win, and how there is no place for bitterness and hatred, but neither is there a place for weakness. Had he not made such leaps, he might have turned out like Robert Mugabe. That is not a pleasant outcome for blacks or whites.
gturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 08:13 AM   #36
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

gturner wrote: View Post
George Washington won a conventional war
... actually he was famous for unconventional tactics and did not flinch from the killing of civilians. His Seneca nickname was "town burner" after his incineration of several dozen Iroquois villages during the Revolutionary War. But it's funny how people with a purely tactical admiration of pacifism generally and Gandhi specifically -- which basically boils down to violence being evil if it is used by nonwhites to defend themselves from whites -- will not tend to get hung up on such details in reference to men like Washington.

(Mandela's use of armed force was of course far closer to being symbolic by comparison, and you are entirely correct that a great part of his genius was in rising above -- in particular in learning about the Boers and thus how to out-maneuver the Apartheid regime politically. Nevertheless the reeking hypocrisy of people who are suddenly pacifists-of-convenience when contemplating the supposedly awesome tide of bloodshed unleashed by the mighty MK under Mandela's ruthless command is worth commenting upon.)
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 01:23 PM   #37
Rincewiend
Vice Admiral
 
Rincewiend's Avatar
 
Location: .eu / .nl
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
Mister Spock wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, but the man was a terrorist
... who successfully became the father of a nation and was embraced by the same Boers who had once reviled him, all without renouncing the principle of armed struggle. It's almost like "terrorist" is a largely meaningless nonsense term trotted out when the clueless want to demonize someone they don't remotely understand. The same kinds of clueless who mysteriously rarely have similar criteria for the likes of, say, George Washington.
Yep, in the end even the people he fought against saw him as a freedom fighter, freeing S.-Africa from the shackles of apartheid...
__________________
"ER...HO. HO. HO."

-- Death makes a career move (Terry Pratchett, Hogfather)
Rincewiend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 04:43 PM   #38
Death of Rats
Commodore
 
Death of Rats's Avatar
 
Location: milky way, outer spiral arm, Sol 3
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

gturner wrote: View Post
Yasser Arafat would find that statement amusing.
Contrary to any Israeli politician he had at least a sense of humour. He also coined the phrase: "pick your friends with care. Your enemies will find you anyway."
__________________
SQUEAK!
(rhubarbodendron)
Death of Rats is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 12:29 AM   #39
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
But it's funny how people with a purely tactical admiration of pacifism generally and Gandhi specifically -- which basically boils down to violence being evil if it is used by nonwhites to defend themselves from whites -- will not tend to get hung up on such details in reference to men like Washington.
I guess it all boils down to this. White people using violence to fight injustice: awesome! (I happy face) Non-white people using violence to fight injustice: oh noes the evilz! (I worried face)
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 05:46 PM   #40
BigSnake
Rear Admiral
 
BigSnake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
I guess it all boils down to this. White people using violence to fight injustice: awesome! (I happy face) Non-white people using violence to fight injustice: oh noes the evilz! (I worried face)
Yeah, pretty much.
__________________
Weasels rip BigJake's flesh!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigSnake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 06:19 PM   #41
I Am Groot
I Am Groot
 
I Am Groot's Avatar
 
Location: I Am Groot
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
BigKrampus wrote: View Post
But it's funny how people with a purely tactical admiration of pacifism generally and Gandhi specifically -- which basically boils down to violence being evil if it is used by nonwhites to defend themselves from whites -- will not tend to get hung up on such details in reference to men like Washington.
I guess it all boils down to this. White people using violence to fight injustice: awesome! (I happy face) Non-white people using violence to fight injustice: oh noes the evilz! (I worried face)
__________________
We are Groot and Locutus of Bored.
I Am Groot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 11:14 AM   #42
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 02:34 PM   #43
Boo! Did I Scare Ya?
Admiral
 
Boo! Did I Scare Ya?'s Avatar
 
Location: bbailey861 - Kingston, ON
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

E-DUB wrote: View Post
(By the way, I feel that a program of drone strikes, properly executed, is a moral response to terrorism of the sort practiced by the likes of Al Quida because it is undeniably less messy than the alternative of actual war and, again properly executed, because it can limit casualties to actual enemies.)
Me, too.
Boo! Did I Scare Ya? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2013, 03:15 AM   #44
Ln X
Fleet Captain
 
Ln X's Avatar
 
Location: The great gig in the sky
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

Santa Hooves wrote: View Post
Mister Spock wrote: View Post
Santa Hooves wrote: View Post

Legitimate sources, well cited, please. I mean, after all, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. While Mandela even insisted he was no saint, and he did, at times, advocate violence, you seem to be portraying his life as that of a bloodthirsty tyrant.
Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

- Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

- Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

- Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

- Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

- Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988

- Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

- Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988

Tellingly, not only did Mandela refuse to renounce violence, Amnesty refused to take his case stating "the movement recorded that it could not give the name of 'Prisoner of Conscience' to anyone associated with violence, even though as in 'conventional warfare' a degree of restraint may be exercised."
Cite your sources, please.
I do see where Mister Spock is coming from and I do agree there was a much darker side to Nelson Mandela.

There is a rather interesting biography of Nelson Mandela by Dr Pieter Möller, the former deputy leader of the HNP -- a right wing party which supported Apartheid. So naturally they (HNP) would want to sling on Mandela's image, even so if Mandela was an angel they would not have had so many grievances against him.

http://www.hnp.org.za/site/index.php?id=67


A glimpse into Mandela's mindset can be found in his statement at the opening of the defence case in the Rivonia Trial (1963/1964). He admitted endorsing 'controlled violence' and how Marxism comprised a large part of the ANC

http://www.un.org/en/events/mandelad...ent_1964.shtml


The Rivonia Trial was brought about after Mandela and the ANC devised an armed coup of South Africa, in what was known as Operation Mayibuye. Had Operation Mayibuye occurred it would have splintered South Africa and probably led to years of civil war. The following is one of the pieces of evidence in the Rivonia Trial which detailed both the ANC's and MK's (Umkhonto we Sizwe -- a terrorist group) objectives of Operation Mayibuye.

http://www.historicalpapers.wits.ac....4-Aa5-text.pdf


Mandela freely admitted to all the charges of sabotage during the Rivonia Trial, and that is why the Rivonia Trial occurred because at the time the ANC, MK, Mandela and his associates were the number one danger to South Africa's stability.

The biggest misconception about this trial is the belief that Mandela was tried strictly because he was opposed to Apartheid, when really he was tried for being the head of a terrorist organisation which threatened South Africa's stability, government and people. That's why the CIA still had Mandela on their terrorist lists even up to 2008 and why Margaret Thatcher thought very poorly of Mandela and the ANC.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-8994191.html


As for Nelson Mandela's record as President of South Africa it was pretty poor. The economy deteriorated, unemployment rose, inflation sharply increased and the only winners seemed to be the ANC. Ironically one type of Apartheid had been replaced with another; gone was racial Apartheid and in its stead was an even worse economic Apartheid. The EISA (Electoral Institute for Sustainable Democracy in Africa) has a great (but long) summary of the various economic metrics which deteriorated under Mandela's presidency.

http://www.eisa.org.za/WEP/souoverview8.htm


While John Pilger, one of the best investigative journalists out there, investigates the economic imbalances which were left unchecked in South Africa in his documentary "Apartheid Did Not Die (1998)"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRlh2nUWrzs


Even now South Africa is still an economically troubled country and the Marikana miners' strike of last year is a testament to that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marikan...ike#Background


Finally Dr. Peter Hammond's (a South African missionary who worked with Frontline Fellowship; a non-profit organization which supports various churches in South Africa) meeting with Mandela (who was then president) concerning persecution of the countries Christians is another insight into Mandela's actions and thinking. After the meeting Frontline Fellowship received a lengthy tax audit, I guess Mandela had little tolerance for Peter Hammond.

Part 1 of Hammond's account of the meeting.

http://crossmap.christianpost.com/vi...r-hammond-5200

Part 2 of Hammond's account of the meeting.

http://crossmap.christianpost.com/vi...r-hammond-5201


Mandela's aim of destroying Apartheid was a noble one, it was a very messed up system, and his talk of freedom, democracy and tolerance still holds up today. I really do think he believed in those things but the means in which he set out to accomplish this are at best dubious. While under his leadership, the vision he had of a strong and prosperous South Africa did not exactly come into fruition.

As such my feelings towards Mandela are pretty much neutral. On one hand he passionately fought against Apartheid and helped bring about the first democratic elections in South Africa, but on the other hand he was a terrorist, a communist and economically South Africa suffered during his term as President.

That's why I think it is unwise to place him on this pedestal which so many people have; he was no saint put it that way. At any rate omitting and altering history to portray the commonly held view of Mandela smacks of propaganda to me. If we're going to remember this man, let us not remember a false image of Nelson Mandela because that would be disrespectful. Instead let us remember him for both his words and actions, what he truly believed in and the impact he made upon this world (for both good and bad).
__________________
Star Trek: The Approaching Shadow...

Caption contest: DS9
Ln X is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2013, 03:33 AM   #45
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Nelson Mandela has died

"I am not a saint, unless you think of a saint as a sinner who keeps on trying." — Nelson Mandela
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:05 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.