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Old December 10 2013, 06:57 AM   #376
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Pulp is at the heart of most commercial movies and TV shows, albeit pulp can be infused with artistry and emotional resonance to elevate it.

Some genres, and some particular franchises, have inherent logic problems - if one applies real world logic - that one has to be able to overlook or else that genre or franchise just can't be enjoyed. That's not to say that every plot hole should be ignored or excused, but it does require the capacity to let some things go and just suspend disbelief. Most superhero secret identities fall under that category, as does Star Trek's wildly inconsistent levels of technology.
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Old December 10 2013, 07:49 AM   #377
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

If Momoa is playing Doomsday this could be how Wonder Woman (and the rumored Flash cameo) is worked into the film. She comes in to aid Superman in the fight.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:31 AM   #378
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

And the Council was in complete denial about the whole thing, so of course they were going to go about their business like usual.
That describes the Council in the Donner version. In this version, they knew, and simply chose not to act. There was no real reason given for this foolishness.

And that's the point. I like pulp and I like comic book-style films, but when smart characters act foolish simply for the sake of a plot point, and dialogue is way over the top simply to make a guy sound like a bad guy, then it starts to annoy me. MoS did this with the council, and then Zod, respectively. Combine that with some stupid teaching from Jonathan Kent, and "Superman"'s disregard for human life, makes this movie an ill-conceived story.

Make no mistake: I wanted it to work. I wanted to like this film. There are flashes of the film I wanted it to be. I like Lois in this version. I loved Faora. (in fact the only bit I didn't like with Faora was when she was injured and had to be carried like a baby back to her ship by a subordinate. That kind of weakened her character)

My favorite bit was when the military started calling him "Superman." I perked up, for sure.

But, it was not to be. This was not Superman. This was not a coherent story. Coupled with the fact that it overcompensated for what Singer's filmed lacked ("Waah, Supes didn't throw a single punch!") made me feel that this film was patched together.

That being said, I think the new girl will look great as WW. I do agree that, based on her photos, she is not physically ready (you guys can put the hate on Kirk5555 all you want, but he's right when he says that, right now, it looks like Lois Lane could beat the snot out of Wonder Woman) but I'm sure they will make her look the part. And Batman might be cool too. It just feels over-crammed, and they are beginning from a very shaky original film.

There, I've said my place.

If they planned it from the start, I think the woman who played Faora would have been a great Wonder Woman!
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Old December 10 2013, 01:35 PM   #379
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

I've come to this late and I'm totally baffled at how many people are saying 'she's too thin.' Sure, she's thin now, but does anyone think she'll still be that skinny when filming starts?

I have two friends who run a gym and they frequently do body transformation courses for clients. Their clients aren't movie stars who can buy expensive foods and nutrients and train all day long, they're ordinary people who hold down jobs. And I see the before and after pics on my friends' gym's Facebook page and the changes are stunning. Weight loss, muscle gain, definition showing where previously there was fat etc. Usually over about 8 weeks or so.

Gadot will probably be put on an intensive training course with a well-paid personal trainer and given a highly-personalised diet for that time. You can expect a total change in her body mass and shape.

Off the top of my head DeNiro in Cape Fear, Reeve in Superman, Craig in Casino Royale, Jackman in X-Men (and even in the Wolverine solo movies, he's changed his body shape from the previous films), Bale in Batman Beings, Maguire in Spider-man - none of them looked like that before being cast. Ditto Linda Hamilton in T2 or Demi Moore in GI Jane.

It may be that Ms Gadot has the acting ability of a slug. But I think facially-wise she looks the role, she is tall for a woman and if an ex-IDF trainer, she doubtless has the fitness and stamina. So her physique is the least of my concerns about how she matches up here.
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Old December 10 2013, 02:03 PM   #380
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
And the Council was in complete denial about the whole thing, so of course they were going to go about their business like usual.
That describes the Council in the Donner version. In this version, they knew, and simply chose not to act. There was no real reason given for this foolishness.

And that's the point. I like pulp and I like comic book-style films, but when smart characters act foolish simply for the sake of a plot point, and dialogue is way over the top simply to make a guy sound like a bad guy, then it starts to annoy me. MoS did this with the council, and then Zod, respectively. Combine that with some stupid teaching from Jonathan Kent, and "Superman"'s disregard for human life, makes this movie an ill-conceived story.

Make no mistake: I wanted it to work. I wanted to like this film. There are flashes of the film I wanted it to be. I like Lois in this version. I loved Faora. (in fact the only bit I didn't like with Faora was when she was injured and had to be carried like a baby back to her ship by a subordinate. That kind of weakened her character)

My favorite bit was when the military started calling him "Superman." I perked up, for sure.

But, it was not to be. This was not Superman. This was not a coherent story. Coupled with the fact that it overcompensated for what Singer's filmed lacked ("Waah, Supes didn't throw a single punch!") made me feel that this film was patched together.

That being said, I think the new girl will look great as WW. I do agree that, based on her photos, she is not physically ready (you guys can put the hate on Kirk5555 all you want, but he's right when he says that, right now, it looks like Lois Lane could beat the snot out of Wonder Woman) but I'm sure they will make her look the part. And Batman might be cool too. It just feels over-crammed, and they are beginning from a very shaky original film.

There, I've said my place.

If they planned it from the start, I think the woman who played Faora would have been a great Wonder Woman!
While I thought MOS was quite good, I think a lot of the inconsistencies you're describing are attributable to Nolan's involvement. They were trying to "Dark-Knight-ify" Superman, and Nolan's approach (which people bafflingly insist on calling "realistic") is fundamentally incompatible with colorful, optimistic heroes like Supes. I actually found the results much better than I expected (I have WAY more issues with Batman's behavior in the DK trilogy than I do with Superman's behavior in MOS), but the film does show some signs that Nolan and Snyder don't quite get what makes Superman unique and wonderful. Still, there was nothing glaring enough to dampen my enthusiasm for the next one.
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Old December 10 2013, 04:48 PM   #381
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
(you guys can put the hate on Kirk5555 all you want, but he's right when he says that, right now, it looks like Lois Lane could beat the snot out of Wonder Woman)
If that was what he was saying we'd be fine with it. What he's been saying is that she is super thin and can never ever put on any weight and that at 5'9" she's too short on the verge of being a dwarf.
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Old December 10 2013, 05:07 PM   #382
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Lois Lane Earth 3 is Superwoman.

Wonder Woman wouldn't stand a chance.
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Old December 10 2013, 05:19 PM   #383
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
That describes the Council in the Donner version. In this version, they knew, and simply chose not to act. There was no real reason given for this foolishness.
There was, actually: they were in denial about thinking they would find a solution to the problem that wouldn't involve upsetting their lifestyle or worldview. It's an analogy to the mindset of, say, present-day climate change denialists. And quite an effective one, too.

You do have a point about the line: "There's only one way this ends, Kal! Either you die - or I do." Zod, dude, that's... that's two ways. (Nevertheless MoS' bad-guy Kryptonians, and its plotting, were an advance light-years beyond their predecessors in film, as much as I still love hearing Terence Stamp say "Kneel before Zod!")
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Old December 10 2013, 06:59 PM   #384
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Oh, God!
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Old December 10 2013, 08:29 PM   #385
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
That describes the Council in the Donner version. In this version, they knew, and simply chose not to act. There was no real reason given for this foolishness.
There was, actually: they were in denial about thinking they would find a solution to the problem that wouldn't involve upsetting their lifestyle or worldview. It's an analogy to the mindset of, say, present-day climate change denialists. And quite an effective one, too.

You do have a point about the line: "There's only one way this ends, Kal! Either you die - or I do." Zod, dude, that's... that's two ways. (Nevertheless MoS' bad-guy Kryptonians, and its plotting, were an advance light-years beyond their predecessors in film, as much as I still love hearing Terence Stamp say "Kneel before Zod!")
I disagree with your last point.

Although Stamp's Zod had simplistic motivations (and for a comic book film this is a good thing, because the new zod has a half dozen reasons for doing what he is doing, and doesn't feel like a deeper character despite this; in fact he feels shallower somehow, as if he knows he's the "bad guy") there was complexity Stamp's Zod played in the character himself. You can see him thinking (like when he says "ah," when what Lex says to him about the Son of Jor-el" makes sense) and there's actually some good comic timing here that is very subtle. Zod both wants to rule and he is naive and without knowledge of Earth's culture, and that dichotomy brings with it a few understated (and overstated) laughs, but Stamp makes it work because he plays it straight. Zod might have all these powers, but he rules with charisma. That's why he has followers in the original films.

Also, I love how, knowing he is so powerful, barely feels the need to break a sweat if it's not called for, even in a big battle. He's stand atop a building and randomly use his heat vision to destroy cars. No need for him to do any more than that.

The new Zod was written with no subtlety,, no wit, and no reason to like the guy at all.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:32 PM   #386
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

He was the villain. You're not supposed to like him.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:35 PM   #387
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

TheSeeker wrote: View Post
He was the villain. You're not supposed to like him.
That's in the objective sense.

But I disagree. We are supposed to like villains. That's what makes them interesting. It could be because they are cool funny, or have a valid point. Or that they could be right. Or a dozen other reasons. A villain that we like is something that helps make a film good.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:43 PM   #388
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
The new Zod was written with no subtlety, no wit, and no reason to like the guy at all.
He was written as a general -- and as someone loyal to (a conservatively-defined) vision of his people and homeworld. I actually quite liked that all his actions do in fact fit with this: he's an avatar of a Kryptonian caste system and in search of somewhere to recreate a home for that caste system once the original one is destroyed, and the demise of that possibility believably pushes him (even further over) the edge. It provides a believable motivation for his villainy and for his soldiers to follow him beyond the "kneel before me" moustache-twirling of the original article (although Stamp brought some nice touches to this, moustache-twirling is still all it is). He's still a comic book character -- a simple, straightforward villain -- just with enough of a basic foundation to make him psychologically believable. (That he had less "subtlety" and "wit" actually fit the character better, all villains don't need to be a source of laughs.)

For that matter I like the new Krypton in general. It was less inert than the earlier film version, and was provided with a halfway-believable socio-political conflict to contribute to the intrasigence Jor-El encounters.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:48 PM   #389
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

As much as I love Stamp's Zod, I don't need every movie supervillain to be written the same way, or to be constantly throwing out quips like Hiddleston's Loki.

Snyder and Nolan clearly wanted this Zod to be scary and intense as hell, and to be a huge threat for Superman, and I thought they succeeded in that. And his single-minded drive and intensity also helped make you understand why Superman would have no choice but to kill him at the end-- because he would just not be stopped any other way.

Edit: Oops, the guy above beat me to it.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:55 PM   #390
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Re: Gal Gadot cast as Wonder Woman In ‘Batman Vs. Superman’

^^ This


Also I'd like to add that after the Donner movie. Every single Zod in the comics up until MOS (since Earth One by JMS' and New 52 Zod haven't introduced yet) have all had the same motivation. Kill Kal-El/Superman because he had a grudge against Jor-El for judging and jailing him. I like how MOS Zod doesn't have a grudge against Superman because of who his parentage is. Zod in MOS is kind of a tragic character when you think about it. He came to Earth for the exact same reason that Jor-El sent Kal to Earth. For hope. This is way more interesting and complex when compared to the Stamp-Zod of and the subsequent Zod's that have appeared in the comics from 1980-2011.
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