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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 3 2013, 12:09 PM   #31
JarodRussell
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

There was that unexpected delay with the script, wasn't it? I guess that's where the Khan thing happened.
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Old December 3 2013, 12:14 PM   #32
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Into Darkness made more money than any other Trek movie, I thought it was great and we are getting a sequel. How could it have possibly gone better if audiences knew Harrison was Khan?
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Old December 3 2013, 02:00 PM   #33
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post

Likely because as good as STID did, it didn't do as well as many expected it to as a follow up. It did less domestically than the 2009 film, despite having a boost in 3D and IMAX tickets. The fact that Abrams himself regards the marketing strategy in hiding Khan as mistake should tell you something. STID was not a failure, but it's box office run isn't as impressive as other successful franchises and might not be enough for Paramount to want to put out so much money. That's also why there's talks of budgets being lower for the follow up film, because they realize it's not going to make the kind of profit that other franchises like PIRATES, TRANSFORMERS, THE DARK KNIGHT, MARVEL, ect makes.
I think people are missing something: there could simply be a "high end" that Trek movies can be realistically expected to make. That Star Trek will never have the same market appeal as super-hero and fantasy movies.
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Old December 3 2013, 02:36 PM   #34
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

I agree with that, which is why Paramount can't keep spending such a budget that is usually reserved for those kind of films. Would revealing Khan have shot up the movie to gross a billion dollars? Likely not, but I can't imagine it would have made less than it ended up making. That's my speculation, but one I stand by. Paramount shouldn't be intimidated by Trek being too "niche" with stuff like Khan of all things. It implies they're not too confident about their brand, which can't be true given the generous budgets that the older films never dreamed of getting.
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Old December 3 2013, 03:25 PM   #35
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
So instead, Paramount chose to angle their promotion of the film omitting that little tidbit. There's nothing wrong with that. It makes pefect sense that Paramount would want as many butts in the theaters and as many eyeballs on those screens because means the picture is selling tickets. Why this is such a complex issue to comprehend is beyond me.
Thing is, the reason they chose Khan is because it's "what everyone wanted." You'd think if you're going to include "what everyone wanted" in the movie, you'd want to promote the hell out of it, not keep it a secret. Hell, at the very least they could have made John Harrison the renegade Starfleet officer public a lot sooner than they did.

I guarantee you, hearing "the Enterprise crew fights Khan" or "the Enterprise crew fights a renegade Starfleet officer" makes the movie sound a lot more exciting than "the Enterprise crew fights someone."
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Old December 3 2013, 05:37 PM   #36
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Remember how so many people were saying that it had to be Khan because of the marketing potential? I guess they were wrong.
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Old December 3 2013, 06:48 PM   #37
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Eh, I had lots of "average movie going Fans' come up to me, knowing I am a SciFi Geek asking me if it was Khan. So, I think the Rumor mill got it out there, and built up the "Is it or isn't it, watch the film to find out" hype. I don't really believe a straight out "It's Khan" Marketing campaign would've worked any better for the General audience, and I don't believe a sizable chunk of the hardcore fans stayed away from or went to see the film based upon wether they thought Khan was in it or not.
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Old December 3 2013, 06:57 PM   #38
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
So instead, Paramount chose to angle their promotion of the film omitting that little tidbit. There's nothing wrong with that. It makes pefect sense that Paramount would want as many butts in the theaters and as many eyeballs on those screens because means the picture is selling tickets. Why this is such a complex issue to comprehend is beyond me.
Thing is, the reason they chose Khan is because it's "what everyone wanted." You'd think if you're going to include "what everyone wanted" in the movie, you'd want to promote the hell out of it, not keep it a secret. Hell, at the very least they could have made John Harrison the renegade Starfleet officer public a lot sooner than they did.

I guarantee you, hearing "the Enterprise crew fights Khan" or "the Enterprise crew fights a renegade Starfleet officer" makes the movie sound a lot more exciting than "the Enterprise crew fights someone."
The nerd rage and foaming at the mouth about this movie got to be ridiculous, and I knew, I just KNEW the minute I saw that article pop up on Pajiba that someone would post it here and (whether intentionally or not) misconstrue JJ's quote. I was not advocating that it was a better or ideal way to promote the film. I was attempting to point out the oversight by the OP's insinuation that this was all done to "snub" longtime Trek fans. That's all.
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Old December 3 2013, 07:05 PM   #39
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
That's the annoying thing. Hollywood thinks their audience is stupid. Maybe they are only projecting and they themselves are stupid.

The irony is that, since Khan was a secret, people went to see Cumberbatch as John Harrison. Yes, they actually wanted to see an original villain, because you advertised the film that way, you fools! There was absolutely no financial benefit in having Khan in this.
I'd tend to agree with your first sentence except your your bottom paragraph basically proves them right.

Anyone who seriously thought that John Harrison was just going to be John Harrison was an idiot. From the first time I hear of the the serious inclusion of the Botonay Bay post credits scene that they were going with Khan in the second movie.

Not only did it only make the most sense in the world, all of their rumored casting choices gave it away, even when they went with a less obvious choice, everything was pointing to Khan. If nobody figured it out by the time the first teaser came well before the actual film, and they still thought it wasn't going to be Khan then they deserved to be let down.

Seriously, it was a very poorly kept secret. Most people just seemed to be in some kind of denial about it.
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Old December 3 2013, 07:47 PM   #40
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Bearing in mind I haven't seen STID so I don't know how well the reveal was handled, I thought the 'teasing' got a bit tedious, at least for fans.

PR dept: "There a super-sekrit villain surprise in STID!"
Fans: "It's Khan, isn't it?"
PR dept:"It's an awesome surprise!"
Fans: "Yeah, it's Khan."
PR dept: "Nooo, Cumberbatch is playing John Harrison, tee-hee!"
Fans:"Guys, we know it's Khan."
Karl Urban: It's Gary Mitchell! Oops, I totally leaked the secret!"
Fans: *sigh*

6 months later:

Cumberbatch: "My name is Khan!"
Fans: "No shit, Sherlock."
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Old December 3 2013, 07:51 PM   #41
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
So instead, Paramount chose to angle their promotion of the film omitting that little tidbit. There's nothing wrong with that. It makes pefect sense that Paramount would want as many butts in the theaters and as many eyeballs on those screens because means the picture is selling tickets. Why this is such a complex issue to comprehend is beyond me.
Thing is, the reason they chose Khan is because it's "what everyone wanted." You'd think if you're going to include "what everyone wanted" in the movie, you'd want to promote the hell out of it, not keep it a secret. Hell, at the very least they could have made John Harrison the renegade Starfleet officer public a lot sooner than they did.

I guarantee you, hearing "the Enterprise crew fights Khan" or "the Enterprise crew fights a renegade Starfleet officer" makes the movie sound a lot more exciting than "the Enterprise crew fights someone."
The nerd rage and foaming at the mouth about this movie got to be ridiculous, and I knew, I just KNEW the minute I saw that article pop up on Pajiba that someone would post it here and (whether intentionally or not) misconstrue JJ's quote. I was not advocating that it was a better or ideal way to promote the film. I was attempting to point out the oversight by the OP's insinuation that this was all done to "snub" longtime Trek fans. That's all.
I never said the decision was done to snub fans. Only that I'm not surprised that Paramount chose to ignore aiming the film toward fans. What I was trying to articulate was, it was silly to be coy about the film's antagonist when Gen audiences wouldn't care who it was. Khan's identity was only something fans would catch on to. How many times did they lie about the film's villain identity? Who benefitted from them keeping the secret? General audiences wouldn't care who it was. Keeping it a secret only fueled fan speculation. The same narrow audience TPTB stated they weren't trying to appeal to.
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Old December 3 2013, 08:06 PM   #42
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

Thing is, the reason they chose Khan is because it's "what everyone wanted." You'd think if you're going to include "what everyone wanted" in the movie, you'd want to promote the hell out of it, not keep it a secret. Hell, at the very least they could have made John Harrison the renegade Starfleet officer public a lot sooner than they did.

I guarantee you, hearing "the Enterprise crew fights Khan" or "the Enterprise crew fights a renegade Starfleet officer" makes the movie sound a lot more exciting than "the Enterprise crew fights someone."
The nerd rage and foaming at the mouth about this movie got to be ridiculous, and I knew, I just KNEW the minute I saw that article pop up on Pajiba that someone would post it here and (whether intentionally or not) misconstrue JJ's quote. I was not advocating that it was a better or ideal way to promote the film. I was attempting to point out the oversight by the OP's insinuation that this was all done to "snub" longtime Trek fans. That's all.
I never said the decision was done to snub fans. Only that I'm not surprised that Paramount chose to ignore aiming the film toward fans. What I was trying to articulate was, it was silly to be coy about the film's antagonist when Gen audiences wouldn't care who it was. Khan's identity was only something fans would catch on to. How many times did they lie about the film's villain identity? Who benefitted from them keeping the secret? General audiences wouldn't care who it was. Keeping it a secret only fueled fan speculation. The same narrow audience TPTB stated they weren't trying to appeal to.
See, I don't think they've ever said they weren't trying to appeal to "The Fanz", in fact, they've gone out of their way to appeal to fans. What they've said is they aren't aiming "exclusively" at fans. In other words, don't expect anything "Fan-Wanky" that will leave the General Audience lost or rolling their eyes, but, IMHO, they've never given any indication that there wasn't going to be any fan-wanking. It's just that the Fan-wanking needs to be non-objectionable (or unnoticeable/unimportant) to the General Audience.
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Old December 3 2013, 08:08 PM   #43
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Announcing that Khan was the villain in the film would have proclaimed precisely that and anyone who had ever heard of Star Trek or had a passing familiarity with it would know 'Eh, more of the same stuff, why should I go see it?' ---at least, that was the logic Paramount, not Abrams, used to guide their promotion of the film.
Thank god Paramount wasn't in charge of The Dark Knight. They would have been afraid to alienate general fans and kept The Joker as a secret. Heath Ledger would have been advertised as a small time mob boss named Blake Stone who wants to take over the underworld.

Hiding Khan was incredibly stupid and the lack of an identifiable villain did hurt the film's potential. I was interested in the film because I'm a Star Trek fan, but to general audiences the trailers must have looked extremely generic. Paramount was afraid of scaring off the general audience, but that's exactly what ended up happening.
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Old December 3 2013, 08:45 PM   #44
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
So instead, Paramount chose to angle their promotion of the film omitting that little tidbit. There's nothing wrong with that. It makes pefect sense that Paramount would want as many butts in the theaters and as many eyeballs on those screens because means the picture is selling tickets. Why this is such a complex issue to comprehend is beyond me.
Thing is, the reason they chose Khan is because it's "what everyone wanted." You'd think if you're going to include "what everyone wanted" in the movie, you'd want to promote the hell out of it, not keep it a secret. Hell, at the very least they could have made John Harrison the renegade Starfleet officer public a lot sooner than they did.

I guarantee you, hearing "the Enterprise crew fights Khan" or "the Enterprise crew fights a renegade Starfleet officer" makes the movie sound a lot more exciting than "the Enterprise crew fights someone."
Actually, the hardcore fans just assumed that everyone wanted Khan, because it fit some preconceived notion that the hardcore fans had about what the lowest common denominator looked like. But the truth is that the hardcore fans have no idea what the general public, in aggregate, knows about Star Trek. The hardcore fans especially have no idea what the general public cares about enough to get drawn in by.

It sounds like Paramount wisely decided, based on actual research no doubt, that to the public at large that film was The Wrath of Who?

"Coming this year: Instead of something new and fresh, it's the Ultimate Showdown™ with the villain from that film you never saw and don't care about!"
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Old December 3 2013, 09:01 PM   #45
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

What JJ has offered is a "nopology," trying to evade responsibility for not the marketing of the film, but the writing and production decisions that caused some (justified) handwringing.
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