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Old November 30 2013, 03:06 PM   #16
borgboy
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

teacake wrote: View Post
I loved the explanation. I thought it very satisfying and well done as well as being an interesting story in itself.
ITA
I didn't have a burning desire to have it explained, but since the story was great, it worked really well.
And yeah, the Trills. I've seen a pic of Terry Farrell made up as an original Trill, and apparently tptb didn't like the look on her, so they changed it to spots. That bothered me more than the Klingons, since it wasn't a matter of change in the specials effects available over the years, but the Excelsior novel gave them a good explanation.
Annoyingly though, when the Trill Odan was in the Wildstorm comics crossover of DS9 and TNG Divided We Fall, they drew Odan like a new Trill with spots to "correct" the change. The mini series was still a really good Trill story though.
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Old November 30 2013, 03:41 PM   #17
RandyS
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

borgboy wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
I loved the explanation. I thought it very satisfying and well done as well as being an interesting story in itself.
ITA
I didn't have a burning desire to have it explained, but since the story was great, it worked really well.
And yeah, the Trills. I've seen a pic of Terry Farrell made up as an original Trill, and apparently tptb didn't like the look on her, so they changed it to spots. That bothered me more than the Klingons, since it wasn't a matter of change in the specials effects available over the years, but the Excelsior novel gave them a good explanation.
Annoyingly though, when the Trill Odan was in the Wildstorm comics crossover of DS9 and TNG Divided We Fall, they drew Odan like a new Trill with spots to "correct" the change. The mini series was still a really good Trill story though.
I've never read that. Was Odan still the blond woman seen at the end of "The Host" in that?
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Old November 30 2013, 04:06 PM   #18
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

SPOILERS FOR DIVIDED WE FALL COMIC
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Yes, Odan started out as the same blonde female host, they just drew her with spots instead of the funny forehead. By the end of the comic though the female host is dead and Odan has a new male host.
I have more thoughts on this, but I'm going to carry this over to a new thread in the DS9 forum rather than hijack a Klingon thread with a lot of thoughts on the Trills.
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Old November 30 2013, 04:35 PM   #19
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

RandyS wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post

I agree. I'm not usually fan of fanwanky unnecessary explanations (like the nuTrek comics trying to explain why Khan is British now or the ENT novel that tried to explain why TOS looks less advanced than the NX-01),
The ENTERPRISE novels are one of the few series I'm current on, and I don't remember any such explanation. What book was this in?

As for the topic, while I love "fanwank" (but I HATE that "word"), I agree that an explanation for the Klingon forehead ridges was unecessary.

It was still a good story, though.
I believe it was Kobayashi Maru, where Starfleet realized that their oldest technology was immune to the Romulan telepresence, and future ships were built low-tech to avoid future attacks (this conflicts with "In a Mirror, Darkly" where the NX-class, along with Vulcan and Andorian ships, were crushed by the USS Defiant). The recent Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures smartly undid it, saying they'd found a way to prevent future telepresence possession but that starship designers had become fond of the old-style buttons and toggle switches and kept using them in new designs.
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Old November 30 2013, 07:07 PM   #20
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
It wasn't clear enough?
Oh, I kinda figured it was, but since I am by far an expert on all things "Trek", I decided to ask those who are more knowledgeable. My knowledge only comes from TOS, and what I have seen since starting the process of watching Star Trek from a historical perspective (starting with ENT and going through Voyager) (I am on the last season of ENT). Since my knowledge is severely lacking in TNG, DS9, and Voyager, I thought you guys might enlighten me about something I might be missing.
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Old November 30 2013, 09:42 PM   #21
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

And the one thing you are missing is the DS9 ep I mentioned which I am sure you will enjoy very much when you get to it
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Old December 15 2013, 11:33 AM   #22
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

I really wish that ENTERPRISE had let the Klingon forehead explaination alone. It was bound to be cheezy, whatever explaination they offered, for one thing. For another, they did seem to be aware of this and wanted to make the episode alot edgier, with the inclusion of the Human augments. It made the pill go down alot easier, but it was still an awkward explaination. I didn't really care about the Klingon foreheads until B'Elanna Torres, though. Such a beautiful, sexy woman as Roxann Dawson should've been able to pull off any prosthetic prop, right? Or would be, if it were a competent design. It looks so awkward and lame that I would've been happier, really, if they'd just ignored the whole make-up update thing and just made her up like a swarthy TOS Klingon ...
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Old December 15 2013, 11:47 AM   #23
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

I wish they'd done an arc explaining why Klingons use the same ships in ENT as they do in DS9 225 years later, and why they're all (with the single exception of STIII) complete rustbuckets. In short - adapt the backstory from the novel Ishmael, that ancient tribal Klingons were enslaved by the Karsid Empire, which mysteriously vanished 600 years ago leaving their Klingon slaves with fleets of ships, which they've been using (and presumably upgrading to match weapons with the Federation) ever since. It not only explains the ships, but why such a people as the Klingons would ever make it into space.
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Old December 15 2013, 02:51 PM   #24
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

I do like the explanation of Klingons using alien tech. It does strech credibility that they'd advance so well as they do considering how engineers and scientists would get no respect in their society, and thus many promising tech people would've instead been soldiers, since that's the only line of work with any "honor" or respect in their society.
It also makes me think of that bit about how the Klingons killed their gods. Possibly that's the story of them rising up against their alien masters.
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Old December 15 2013, 09:19 PM   #25
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

The Klingons are always a "Work in Progess," aren't they? Never really worked out, except for their made-up language which never got used past TUC, because it became so complicated ... HA!!! Personally, I liked them better when they and their motives were mysterious and almost completely unknown ...
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Old December 17 2013, 07:08 PM   #26
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
"we do not speak of it"
I would have been perfectly happy, if it had been left at that, even if not knowing the in-universe explanation became a permanent running gag like what is the sound of Morn's voice.
I thought it would have been cool if after the Defiant traveled back in time if Worf's forehead was smooth and no one commented upon it.

When the Defiant returned to the 24th century Worf would have his usual forehead once more, and again on one would have commented on it.

YMMV.

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Old December 21 2013, 04:06 AM   #27
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

I thought the story arc in Enterprise re the Klingons and their foreheads was pretty good, a decent attempt to bring together all the theories and fanwankery of decades past.

However, normally I just groan with boredom at Klingon storylines, no matter what incarnation of Trek, they are so fucking tedious, from their moronic honour code to their heavy metal hairdos and their cranial ridges.

The old school TOS dudes with the slightly swarthy features and the gold tunic over a black nylon polo neck, were infinitely better.

I bet Star Trek writers, make up guys, producers etc rue the day that they put bumps on those Klingons foreheads at the start of The Motion Picture.

A can of worms indeed, good enough for your average latterday Klingon to eat.
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Old December 21 2013, 04:10 AM   #28
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I wish they'd done an arc explaining why Klingons use the same ships in ENT as they do in DS9 225 years later, and why they're all (with the single exception of STIII) complete rustbuckets. In short - adapt the backstory from the novel Ishmael, that ancient tribal Klingons were enslaved by the Karsid Empire, which mysteriously vanished 600 years ago leaving their Klingon slaves with fleets of ships, which they've been using (and presumably upgrading to match weapons with the Federation) ever since. It not only explains the ships, but why such a people as the Klingons would ever make it into space.
It is implied that the Klingons stole all of their technology from the Hur'q (their former masters), and that's why it takes them so long to make any advancements.

Kind of like the Kazon, who nicked everything they have - up to and including their ships - from the Trabe, and since the Kazon appear to have the technical skills of cement, well, that explains that.

@Therin: The ridged Trill appearance had nothing to do with any conscious action on the Trill's part. It was just due to a Trill colony being visited by Klingons and the virus just happened to infect the Trill there. Nothing more than that.
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Old December 24 2013, 02:30 AM   #29
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

The more I thought about their explanation in the episode the more it didn't make sense. There is no reason for Star Trek Klingons to lack forheads based on the Enterprise episode. And the episode gives the reason why. The Klingon comments that he will have to make prosthetic. Well every Klingon affected by the virus will get a prosthetic rather than look like a puny human. And certainly no Klingon with a plain forehead would get to the rank of Star Trek Klingons. There has to be a reason for the plain forhaeds to be honorable during the time of Star Trek and embarrassing later. They also have to be changeable so that an individual can have no ridges and then later have ridges during their lifetime. My idea is that it was actually part of a spying project to infiltrate humanity. Certainly this would be considered embarrassing by later Klingons. "Imagine, Klingons altering themselves and sneaking around with human scum. How dishonorable." It would also fall in line with the plot from Trouble With Tribbles in that one of the men was secretly a Klingon and had infiltrated a human facility.
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Old December 24 2013, 02:49 AM   #30
Lance
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Re: TOS Klingons explained?

My 'explanation' is that Klingons always had forehead ridges, we just didn't see them in TOS because they didn't have the makeup budget. The TOS Klingons are simply Klingons depicted in short-hand.

In my opinion, "Trials and Tribble-ations" did more harm than good in opening the book on this thing. I think before that episode came along most of us simply accepted that Klingons 'really' look the same in all eras, it's just that the makeup was simplier in TOS... that is, until that episode had to go and suggest that, canonically in universe, they do look different between the eras. So everybody then expected it to be explained... and ENT obliged with an explanation.
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