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Old December 1 2013, 03:51 AM   #61
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

Anwar wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how canon this is, but apparently the Klingons got most of their current tech from aliens called the Hurq that invaded their world about 1000 years before TOS. That's how they got into space to begin with.
As far as I know, this is completely apocryphal and non-canon.

I remember hearing stories in fan circles about Klingon technology being stolen, as far back as the 1970's. At the moment, I can't find any reference to that notion in canon or in licensed TrekLit; it's not referenced in Memory Alpha or Memory Beta.

I wouldn't rule out fanzine published fan-fiction as the ultimate source of the notion of Klingon tech being stolen, but I'm not the expert on that and I don't really know.

The Hur'q are mentioned in only two episodes:

DS9: The Sword of Kahless
ENT: Affliction

I can't find any support in the episode transcripts for the notion.
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Old December 1 2013, 04:13 AM   #62
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

I agree that we do see a pretty wide variety of Klingons out there, but it's the loud and jerky ones that stand out. Most of the ones we see are the most aggressive and violent among them, the best by the standards are probably the ones that get into space.
I do like the idea of the Klingons stealing most of their tech. Considering how little respect their scientists would get, it is likely that they'd lag behind the Federation worlds in their tech.
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Old December 1 2013, 05:19 AM   #63
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

Also, so far as the audience sees, the only Klingon in the galaxy who really puts honor before all else is Worf. Otherwise we see a bunch of politicians and hypocrites, scheming and plotting to build up their house's power.
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Old December 1 2013, 07:26 AM   #64
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Also, so far as the audience sees, the only Klingon in the galaxy who really puts honor before all else is Worf. Otherwise we see a bunch of politicians and hypocrites, scheming and plotting to build up their house's power.
As far as Worf is concerned, I like to think it's because he grew up outside the empire. He holds himself up to the 'ideal' of Klingon honor, because he grew up in an enviroment entirely seperated from the homeworld. A lot of what he believes is true Klingon behaviour he probably learnt "second hand" rather than being exposed to it in his youth. So as an adult he holds himself up to some mythological profile that no other 'actual' Klingon we see ever meets.

The way I see it, other Klingons talk big about honor, but they don't practice what they preach. Worf does practice the 'PR version' of Klingon honor, because he doesn't know any better.
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Old December 1 2013, 12:17 PM   #65
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how canon this is, but apparently the Klingons got most of their current tech from aliens called the Hurq that invaded their world about 1000 years before TOS. That's how they got into space to begin with.
As far as I know, this is completely apocryphal and non-canon.

I remember hearing stories in fan circles about Klingon technology being stolen, as far back as the 1970's. At the moment, I can't find any reference to that notion in canon or in licensed TrekLit; it's not referenced in Memory Alpha or Memory Beta.

I wouldn't rule out fanzine published fan-fiction as the ultimate source of the notion of Klingon tech being stolen, but I'm not the expert on that and I don't really know.

The Hur'q are mentioned in only two episodes:

DS9: The Sword of Kahless
ENT: Affliction

I can't find any support in the episode transcripts for the notion.
As far as I know, it comes from the novel Ishmael (although I guess the idea may pre-date that), but they used the name Karsid Empire and not Hur'Q. It instantly clicked with me, and explained why Klingon ships are always so rusty and ancient looking, and why they use the same ones in DS9 as they do in ENT, 225 years earlier.
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Old December 1 2013, 12:59 PM   #66
Nightdiamond
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

In their defense, the Klingons did design a ship that could cloak and fire at the same time.

And the massive battleship they designed in DS9.

Still, the Klingons stereotyped themselves big time.

It was just one statement from Beverly in that episode that suggested scientists aren't respected in Klingon society, but it was enough to capture people's notice.

It's interesting how everyone remembers that small statement from that episode years later.

It was overkill-- any society needs people like that to advance.

You'd think a warrior society like the Klingons would actually praise scientists, since their discoveries either keep them on par with their enemies, or give them an advantage.
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Old December 1 2013, 02:45 PM   #67
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

I think ENT may have touched upon this, but there'd have to be a caste system in which the greatest power and prestige went to the warriors, but the brains and grunts who enable them to be warriors would gain honor in their own way for doing so.
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Old December 1 2013, 03:06 PM   #68
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Also, so far as the audience sees, the only Klingon in the galaxy who really puts honor before all else is Worf. Otherwise we see a bunch of politicians and hypocrites, scheming and plotting to build up their house's power.
Lance wrote: View Post
JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Also, so far as the audience sees, the only Klingon in the galaxy who really puts honor before all else is Worf. Otherwise we see a bunch of politicians and hypocrites, scheming and plotting to build up their house's power.
As far as Worf is concerned, I like to think it's because he grew up outside the empire. He holds himself up to the 'ideal' of Klingon honor, because he grew up in an enviroment entirely seperated from the homeworld. A lot of what he believes is true Klingon behaviour he probably learnt "second hand" rather than being exposed to it in his youth. So as an adult he holds himself up to some mythological profile that no other 'actual' Klingon we see ever meets.

The way I see it, other Klingons talk big about honor, but they don't practice what they preach. Worf does practice the 'PR version' of Klingon honor, because he doesn't know any better.
The Oy! Mixer wrote: View Post
I think ENT may have touched upon this, but there'd have to be a caste system in which the greatest power and prestige went to the warriors, but the brains and grunts who enable them to be warriors would gain honor in their own way for doing so.
I find it problematic to say that Worf is the only honorable Klingon, only because, like what Worf tends to do, it requires using a definition from outside Klingon culture. Indeed, honor is a lot like chivalry. The conduct of knights during the Middle Ages could often be described as being unchivalrous. However, the word referenced a code of conduct in which behavior, speech, rituals, and responses are formalized. The literature of the era, moreover, wraps in an air of romance. Similarly, Klingon honor requires following the rituals and attitudes and meet the expectations of one's place in the hierarchy. Worf may believe that Gorwon is not honorable for attacking Cardassia without provocation, but that's a human definition. On the other hand, Gowron believing Worf is dishonorable for ignoring his oath of loyalty is perfectly Klingon--perfectly consistent with the code of honor. By the end of the series, Worf finds someone--Martok--whose notion of honor is more in line with his, and who would want Klingon society to be more equitable rather than loyalty driven.
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Old December 1 2013, 06:01 PM   #69
CorporalCaptain
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
I'm not sure how canon this is, but apparently the Klingons got most of their current tech from aliens called the Hurq that invaded their world about 1000 years before TOS. That's how they got into space to begin with.
As far as I know, this is completely apocryphal and non-canon.

I remember hearing stories in fan circles about Klingon technology being stolen, as far back as the 1970's. At the moment, I can't find any reference to that notion in canon or in licensed TrekLit; it's not referenced in Memory Alpha or Memory Beta.

I wouldn't rule out fanzine published fan-fiction as the ultimate source of the notion of Klingon tech being stolen, but I'm not the expert on that and I don't really know.

The Hur'q are mentioned in only two episodes:

DS9: The Sword of Kahless
ENT: Affliction

I can't find any support in the episode transcripts for the notion.
As far as I know, it comes from the novel Ishmael (although I guess the idea may pre-date that), but they used the name Karsid Empire and not Hur'Q. It instantly clicked with me, and explained why Klingon ships are always so rusty and ancient looking, and why they use the same ones in DS9 as they do in ENT, 225 years earlier.
Thanks for that.

Ishmael dates from 1985, which is still pre-TNG, so it's quite possible that I might have gotten a little fuzzy on the dates. I read Ishmael when it first came out (and not since), so that is probably where I first heard it. My memory probably just played tricks on me.
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Old December 1 2013, 08:14 PM   #70
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

I think they made a case in "Redemption" (particularly Part 2) that Worf, having grown up outside the Empire, was practicing an idealized version of the Klingon honor code. In practical application within the Empire itself, being an honorable Klingon would be like being a good Christian...lots of people pay lip service to it to look good, but conveniently ignore what they can get away with ignoring.
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Old December 1 2013, 09:11 PM   #71
billcosby
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

Lance wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Which was more shitful: TNG's "Shades of Grey" or STAR WARS: Caravan of Courage? That's the question which no one seems to have an answer for ...
I've never seen Caravan Of Courage, but I did see its sequel, "The Battle For Endor", which people keep telling me is actually better than the first one. Still crap, mind.
The Ewok films are still sealed in plastic for me... I'm not sure if there will ever be a day rainy enough to find out how bad they are...
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Old December 1 2013, 09:23 PM   #72
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

The Oy! Mixer wrote: View Post
I think they made a case in "Redemption" (particularly Part 2) that Worf, having grown up outside the Empire, was practicing an idealized version of the Klingon honor code.
There used to be a description of Mister Spock (which may date to seventies fanzines) that because he was only half Vulcan, he over did being Vulcan and as a result he was "More Vulcan Than Vulcan."

Just as Spock constantly mentioned Logic and tried to be a perfect Vulcan (with no Human traits), Worf constantly mentioned Honor and tried to be a perfect Klingon (with no signs of his Human upbringing).

We've seen plenty of indications through the years that Vulcans (like Klingons) don't live up to their own ideals.

Worf sometimes reminds me of the young males I grew up with (especially between mid teens to mid twenties) who seemingly couldn't get through a sentence with out invoking the word "respect."

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Old December 1 2013, 09:54 PM   #73
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

Meh, I prefer the John M. Ford Klingons as well as the Diane Duane Romulans.
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Old December 1 2013, 09:57 PM   #74
JD5000
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

warriorsfan wrote: View Post

Speaking of TUC, one criticism I've always had with Trek was elucidated quite nicely in Star Trek 6 during the dinner scene. Chekov makes an off-hand comment about all alien civilizations have a claim to "inalienable human rights", and Gorkon's daughter calls him a racist and mentions that the Federation is nothing but a "Homosapiens Only club."

And you know what? She's totally 100% correct. Despite the Federation being made up of over 150 planets, Starfleet seems to be >95% humans.

Now that might not be the case within the fictional universe, but that is how it's portrayed on TV. I would say TNG was especially guilty of this. Amongst the "background extras" and the crew who weren't main cast members, how many aliens did we ever see? I get that there's practical considerations involved, that there's a time/money cost associated with putting actors in the makeup chair for several hours just for the sake of visual diversity, but still. To the viewer, Starfleet looks very much like a Homosapiens only club in TOS and TNG.

And even the ship names are almost exclusively people/places/things from Earth. What, Starfleet can't name a ship after some famous historical Tellarite figure or some major city on Andoria? Tolstoy gets a Starfleet ship named after him, as if any alien in the 24th century even knows who the hell Tolstoy is.
My understanding is that Starfleet IS primarily Earth's defense force, but is pledged to protect other Federation members, many of which also have their own fleets, albeit much smaller. So if Starfleet is Earth-based, it makes sense that most of their ships would be named after people and places from Earth. Other Trek cultures do this also. There are many examples of Vulcan, Andorian and Klingon ships that are named in the same fashion - after people and places from their home planets.

On the same note, it also makes complete sense that Starfleet would be made up of mostly humans, just as the fleets of the above examples consist primarily of members of those species. Comparably, Starfleet is the most racially diverse fleet in the quadrant, with the possible exception of the Breen.
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Old December 1 2013, 10:03 PM   #75
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Re: Why Star Trek Sucks

JD5000 wrote: View Post

My understanding is that Starfleet IS primarily Earth's defense force, but is pledged to protect other Federation members, many of which also have their own fleets, albeit much smaller. So if Starfleet is Earth-based, it makes sense that most of their ships would be named after people and places from Earth. Other Trek cultures do this also. There are many examples of Vulcan, Andorian and Klingon ships that are named in the same fashion - after people and places from their home planets.
Starfleet is the defense arm of the Federation, not of Earth.
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