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Old December 26 2013, 07:33 AM   #76
trevanian
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
IIRC, the observation room windows in STV were rear projection, too. I found it very effective to see them gradually close on the Great Barrier during Sybok's scenes with Kirk, Spock and McCoy.
All of the TFF bridge main viewscreen shots featuring live-action were RP as well. And there was RP on TUC's main viewer as well at times.
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Old December 26 2013, 10:18 AM   #77
Maurice
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

trevanian wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
TMP had 125 days of shooting (25 weeks!), not including the Klingon Bridge and Epsilon 9. Ouch!
I love the juxtaposition of your remark supporting how TMP had endless amounts of everything and how that hovers just above and wholly at odds with your Welles quote (which I have appropriated for my facebook page.)
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Old January 7 2014, 05:52 PM   #78
137th Gebirg
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Mytran wrote: View Post
Only one camera angle was really used, which helped carry the illusion. The vertical isolation door in TWOK was added by Nicholas Meyer to block off the FP set and free up his camera angles However, in the process of filming the scene the tapered walls and walkway were revealed, along with the shortened sections of the intermix tube. Still, it is a great scene (again, drama takes precedence over technical inconsistencies).
Sadly, I'm a bit late to this discussion, but it brings up several other major inconsistencies aside from the fore-mentioned forced perspective issues that have always bothered me about this scene in particular, despite the otherwise-relative-greatness of TWOK.
  • Problem 1: The isolation door seemingly cuts through the intermix chamber. There should be an opening in the door that allows clearance for the chamber and a narrow secondary door to come up underneath to close off the bottom area. Otherwise, they would completely cut off all power to the warp engines.
  • Problem 2: The other problem with this is that since the door does cut through the chamber, how exactly is the plasma inside prevented from leaking out into the entire engineering compartment as the door is going down? I suppose it could be explained away by "force fields", but if true, the area of the shaft that's beyond the wall should have immediately gone dark as soon as the door was coming down and it never did - it appeared as if power continued to flow aft of the door.
  • Problem 3: The door is extremely tall and engineering is the top-most deck of the secondary hull. Where is the door kept when not in use? Based on appearances, it should be hanging around outside the external skin of the "strong-back" area, as it doesn't seem to fold or telescope in any way.
Just a few nits that came rushing back to me while reading this thread. Love the pics of the FP scenes, BTW. Very interesting.
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Old January 7 2014, 05:59 PM   #79
JarodRussell
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Regarding problem 1, they didn't have warp power until the very end of the film.
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Old January 7 2014, 06:19 PM   #80
137th Gebirg
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Yes, but the door was still down when Spock repaired the "main energizer" (whatever that was). Considering how slow it was to come down initially, there would have been at least another 20-30 seconds for it to come back up and redistribute the plasma up the conduit and into the engines after the repair was complete - provided atmospheric pressure had also been restored there in the meantime. "Bless you Scotty, GO SULU!" took only about a second and a half.

And slightly OT, who thinks the Transphasic Cloaking Device from TNG's "The Pegasus" looks like a mini intermix chamber?
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Old January 7 2014, 07:21 PM   #81
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

I agree with 137th. The isolation door made no damn sense. TWOK's modifications to the engine room set were made with no consideration for how it was supposed to work or where it was supposed to fit inside the ship.
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Old January 7 2014, 08:39 PM   #82
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Yes, but the door was still down when Spock repaired the "main energizer" (whatever that was). Considering how slow it was to come down initially, there would have been at least another 20-30 seconds for it to come back up and redistribute the plasma up the conduit and into the engines after the repair was complete - provided atmospheric pressure had also been restored there in the meantime. "Bless you Scotty, GO SULU!" took only about a second and a half.
Too true!

Agreed also that the door appears to depend on the Enterprise being a TARDIS.

Regarding point 1, given that it severed the intermix chamber, I always took the whole point of the door to be to do just that. I think that the actual problem is that the door didn't open back up and that we didn't have that extra 20-30 seconds, as you said.

For example, Scotty could have turned to see the door start to open, and the intermix chamber warming up, even while Spock kept on working frantically to make a few more adjustments, as if he was crunching a start-up procedure by a shortened checklist.

By the way, I think the door coming down is symbolically a very powerful image. Despite its inconsistency from the point of view of world-building, I wouldn't want the scene of it coming down changed a whole lot. That scene more than served its purpose. Maybe a telescoping door could have produced the same emotional effect. Of course, that sounds like it would have been more expensive.
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Old January 7 2014, 09:05 PM   #83
JarodRussell
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

It's not too hard to imagine a hole in the door so it closes the compartment, but not the tube.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:57 AM   #84
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Problem 1: The isolation door seemingly cuts through the intermix chamber. There should be an opening in the door that allows clearance for the chamber and a narrow secondary door to come up underneath to close off the bottom area. Otherwise, they would completely cut off all power to the warp engines.
Good point. Why separate the horizontal energy conduit if all the damage suggested was merely the release of lethal (coolant?) gas (according to the novelization that's what Midshipman Preston died from).

I believe, after the bulkhead wall came down, you still have the option to "burn" the plasma stream through the bulkhead. Something for the ultimate emergency scenario (and you won't be able to seal off the horizontal conduit again, after having used up this option).

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Problem 2: The other problem with this is that since the door does cut through the chamber, how exactly is the plasma inside prevented from leaking out into the entire engineering compartment as the door is going down? I suppose it could be explained away by "force fields", but if true, the area of the shaft that's beyond the wall should have immediately gone dark as soon as the door was coming down and it never did - it appeared as if power continued to flow aft of the door.
Already in his TMP cross-section sketch Andrew Probert featured "energy seals" for saucer separation. I think those ring segments of the energy conduit can cut off and seal the plasma energy stream, too. The plasma energy further to the stern was apparently somehow "bottled up" and/or what we are still seeing is the effect of highly energetic Cerenkov Radiation.

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Problem 3: The door is extremely tall and engineering is the top-most deck of the secondary hull. Where is the door kept when not in use? Based on appearances, it should be hanging around outside the external skin of the "strong-back" area, as it doesn't seem to fold or telescope in any way.
As a matter of fact the engine room deck level with the horizontal energy conduit is not the top-most deck, there is still an upper level both Spock and Kirk arrived and had to use a ladder down.

In post # 64 I illustrated what I think to be the correct level of the main engine room (more to come, soon)



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Old January 8 2014, 02:19 PM   #85
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

That would allow space for the "main energizer chamber", which I always thought would stick out the side of the hull, like that infamous TMP corridor would in front.
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Old January 8 2014, 03:40 PM   #86
137th Gebirg
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Problem 3: The door is extremely tall and engineering is the top-most deck of the secondary hull. Where is the door kept when not in use? Based on appearances, it should be hanging around outside the external skin of the "strong-back" area, as it doesn't seem to fold or telescope in any way.
As a matter of fact the engine room deck level with the horizontal energy conduit is not the top-most deck, there is still an upper level both Spock and Kirk arrived and had to use a ladder down.

In post # 64 I illustrated what I think to be the correct level of the main engine room (more to come, soon)



Bob
While that diagram makes it appear as if there is a large amount of space above main engineering, it doesn't take into account that the secondary hull tapers down again at the front, providing less headspace over that area than this drawing implies. Also, most side-view cutaways I've seen has the floor of engineering in-line with the top of the shuttle bay doors, considerably higher than it is depicted above, despite the match-up with the y-branch conduits (which were arguably off-angle in the set compared to the studio miniature).

And if you're referring to this scene with the vertical ladders, I was always under the impression that this was somewhere in the connecting neck between the primary and secondary hulls (due to the narrow nature of the walls), well above engineering, that they were using to get around since the turbolifts were "inoperative below C-deck".
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Old January 8 2014, 06:10 PM   #87
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Problem 1: The isolation door seemingly cuts through the intermix chamber. There should be an opening in the door that allows clearance for the chamber and a narrow secondary door to come up underneath to close off the bottom area. Otherwise, they would completely cut off all power to the warp engines.
Since the ship was still able to go to warp with the door down then it would stand to reason that the door protected the crew but did not impede power transfer. It's the same issue of where does the ship pull the power from the vertical/horizontal conduits since we hardly see any power leads running from it.

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
  • Problem 3: The door is extremely tall and engineering is the top-most deck of the secondary hull. Where is the door kept when not in use? Based on appearances, it should be hanging around outside the external skin of the "strong-back" area, as it doesn't seem to fold or telescope in any way.
Actually there is plenty of vertical space, even on the 1000'/305m model for the vertical door. Remember there is a whole level above the main room. The only corridors that don't fit well are the ones heading to the front of the ship

(Click image to enlarge.)
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Old January 8 2014, 06:31 PM   #88
Robert Comsol
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
While that diagram makes it appear as if there is a large amount of space above main engineering, it doesn't take into account that the secondary hull tapers down again at the front, providing less headspace over that area than this drawing implies.
I got the side view almost finished and believe there remains sufficient headspace for the upper engine room level near the bow, even when looked at in a front view.

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
Also, most side-view cutaways I've seen has the floor of engineering in-line with the top of the shuttle bay doors, considerably higher than it is depicted above, despite the match-up with the y-branch conduits (which were arguably off-angle in the set compared to the studio miniature).
Yes, I believe most of these follow Andrew Probert's cross-section sketch of the engineering hull where he tried to accomodate that 7 level engine core "tower" (not his design!) within the engineering hull of a 1,000' Enterprise.

The dilemma: In order to accomodate the upper level of the warp engine room the "tower" would rest on the keel and suck in dark and/or space energy (that would have been something but because of retroactive continuity probably not an issue worth pursuing ).
Creating some space to tap into the antimatter reserves, however, pushed the upper level into the top bow area where there isn't really enough space.

137th Gebirg wrote: View Post
And if you're referring to this scene with the vertical ladders, I was always under the impression that this was somewhere in the connecting neck between the primary and secondary hulls (due to the narrow nature of the walls), well above engineering, that they were using to get around since the turbolifts were "inoperative below C-deck".
I wholeheartedly concur, but this is not the upper level I referred to.
It's the one above the main engine room floor level both Kirk and Spock arrived on in TWOK and then used the starboard side ladder to descend to the main floor.

Here is what the upper level of the studio set looked like in TMP: http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd0433.jpg

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Old January 8 2014, 08:15 PM   #89
137th Gebirg
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

AH! Okay, now I get what you're saying there. I misunderstood.

Yes, I guess it is possible that there could just barely be enough room for the door to be stored in the space above. This cutaway from Eric Kristiansen actually tried to take that into account and I think does a fairly good job of it. There are two closely-placed bulkheads right in the spot where the door would be stored when open, just at the highest rise of the secondary hull above the intermix chamber. So I could see that they might be able to fit it in there.

But I do still think that a 2-piece door would have made more sense to me. Dammit!
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Old January 8 2014, 09:05 PM   #90
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Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Kristiansen's cutaway puts the engine horizontal room too high. There wouldn't be any space for the room above.
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