RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,577
Posts: 5,403,040
Members: 24,865
Currently online: 497
Newest member: shyrim

TrekToday headlines

October-November 2014 Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Cho Selfie TV Alert
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

TPTB To Shatner: Shhh!
By: T'Bonz on Sep 30

Mystery Mini Vinyl Figure Display Box
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

The Red Shirt Diaries Episode Five
By: T'Bonz on Sep 29

Shatner In Trek 3? Well Maybe
By: T'Bonz on Sep 28

Retro Review: Shadows and Symbols
By: Michelle on Sep 27

Meyer: Revitalizing Star Trek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 26

Trek Costumes To Be Auctioned
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25

Hulu Snaps up Abrams-Produced Drama
By: T'Bonz on Sep 25


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 25 2014, 11:03 PM   #316
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
As it is right now, it's the exact same scenes, frame by frame, but "HD"
What did you expect from a remaster?
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 26 2014, 06:24 PM   #317
Rarewolf
Rear Admiral
 
Rarewolf's Avatar
 
Location: Devon, England
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Not so fast, you are forgetting the NTSC "judder" effect during horizontal camera pans.
I always spot a slight judder in the second DS9 titles, when the camera swings past the ship docked on the outer docking ring

Start Wreck wrote: View Post
Let's not confuse footage that's actually shot and intended to be seen at a high framerate, which looks incredible, with footage that's shot at 24fps and then has a cheap TV scaler chip add a load of fake frames inbetween, which looks horrific. Jus' sayin'.
Most of the surviving 60s Doctor Whos were shot on videotape, but only survive due to the film telerecordings made for selling overseas. They've all been professionally restored to their video look and look amazing. It really breaths new life into them.
__________________
"Weaselling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals - except the weasels" Homer Jay Simpson
Rarewolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2014, 06:37 PM   #318
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Not so fast, you are forgetting the NTSC "judder" effect during horizontal camera pans.
I always spot a slight judder in the second DS9 titles, when the camera swings past the ship docked on the outer docking ring.
And another can of worms: IIRC, in the UK, Europe, Australia and other PAL territories we got an extra judder effect "thanks" to the NTSC > PAL conversion.

Would trade my PAL DVDs instantly for their NTSC counterparts (but keep the nice, solid TNG "field equipment" boxes we got in the PAL territories ).

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2014, 10:12 PM   #319
SoM
Commander
 
SoM's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Rarewolf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Not so fast, you are forgetting the NTSC "judder" effect during horizontal camera pans.
I always spot a slight judder in the second DS9 titles, when the camera swings past the ship docked on the outer docking ring.
And another can of worms: IIRC, in the UK, Europe, Australia and other PAL territories we got an extra judder effect "thanks" to the NTSC > PAL conversion.

Would trade my PAL DVDs instantly for their NTSC counterparts (but keep the nice, solid TNG "field equipment" boxes we got in the PAL territories ).
Not usually - the NTSC-PAL conversion they did sped it up (by 4%), but removed the juddering artifacts of playing a 24p signal at 30 frames/second. There might be some judder on stuff shot at 30p, but that's the minority of the footage.
SoM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 28 2014, 10:36 PM   #320
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Isn't the judder partially caused by in essence duplicating frames in order to get the 30fps, whilst PAL just runs the film 4% faster at 25fps
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 01:50 AM   #321
SoM
Commander
 
SoM's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
Isn't the judder partially caused by in essence duplicating frames in order to get the 30fps, whilst PAL just runs the film 4% faster at 25fps
Short answer: Yes.

Slightly longer answer: It's repeating fields (interlaced half-frames) that causes the judder when watching in NTSC/480i, rather than full frames - technically, NTSC is (was) 59.997 fields per second, rather than 30 frames per second. And since the shows were mastered in NTSC, they had to strip the repeated fields out rather than just run the film faster (early UK showings of TNG were "biked" over and converted directly, with all the downsides to both PAL and NTSC baked in, while later showings did the "DEFT" speed-up conversion. And some effects were filmed at 30fps and couldn't be DEFT-converted). But still, the gist of it is "yes"
SoM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29 2014, 03:53 PM   #322
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

SoM wrote: View Post
Not usually - the NTSC-PAL conversion they did sped it up (by 4%), but removed the juddering artifacts of playing a 24p signal at 30 frames/second. There might be some judder on stuff shot at 30p, but that's the minority of the footage.
I just remember vividly the "PAL judder" in "Defiant" in the scene where the Galor class ships move in to protect her. IIRC, the Defiant makes a swing turn to seek cover and this was one of the worst judders I've ever seen (making me aware of the issue).

Good to know that DS9 on Blu-ray will put this and other irritations to a permanent rest.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 12:58 AM   #323
GalaxyX
Rear Admiral
 
GalaxyX's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
As it is right now, it's the exact same scenes, frame by frame, but "HD"
What did you expect from a remaster?
I didn't expect anything. I hoped that they would use the opportunity to feed a little more dynamics into a show that was pretty static looking, mostly due to the budget.

They knew this with the TOS remaster. They wisely chucked out all the old 60's FX and added more fluid and dynamic CGI scenes where they could.

I wish they would have taken the same attitude with TNG.
__________________
Top Gear America: Jay Leno, Adam Carolla, Tim Allen. DONE!
GalaxyX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 03:49 AM   #324
RunawayStarShip
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
As it is right now, it's the exact same scenes, frame by frame, but "HD"
What did you expect from a remaster?
I didn't expect anything. I hoped that they would use the opportunity to feed a little more dynamics into a show that was pretty static looking, mostly due to the budget.

They knew this with the TOS remaster. They wisely chucked out all the old 60's FX and added more fluid and dynamic CGI scenes where they could.

I wish they would have taken the same attitude with TNG.
The problem with "chucking out" previous work is that the remasters are intended as future-proofing. It kind of negates the work of the original artists if it's completely overwritten. (Thankfully, the remastered TOS Blu-rays have both versions.) Plus, I doubt that there's enough budget for both a faithful recreation and a "cooler" version moving forward.

Besides, does new CGI really make that big of a difference most of the time? For example, would "Code of Honor" be any better if the Enterprise fired its torpedoes at the planet while swooping around rather than sitting still?

(I understand the want to see something new, though. When I first played the STTNG game "A Final Unity", it was cool seeing the CGI Enterprise move in ways that were never done on the series. It's just not the mentality that should be taken when remastering, especially when the remaster is the one that's going to be used exclusively in the future.)
RunawayStarShip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 09:18 AM   #325
Mage
Commodore
 
Mage's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
As it is right now, it's the exact same scenes, frame by frame, but "HD"
What did you expect from a remaster?
I didn't expect anything. I hoped that they would use the opportunity to feed a little more dynamics into a show that was pretty static looking, mostly due to the budget.

They knew this with the TOS remaster. They wisely chucked out all the old 60's FX and added more fluid and dynamic CGI scenes where they could.

I wish they would have taken the same attitude with TNG.
Thing is, a lot of TOS fans out there were pissed that happened, and are very gratefull that the blurays offer the change to watch the original remastered episodes, without new CGI.

Personally, I don't feel TNG needs updated SFX. TOS, at some points could, when an alien ship was just a light on the viewscreen. Other effects didn't need to be replaced at all.

I like my shows the way there were, it's why I'm a fan of it. I don't understand how people can say they loved a show, but then list everything that should be changed.
__________________
Niner. Lurker. Browncoat.
Mage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 1 2014, 12:46 PM   #326
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Well, remastering and current CGI capabilities provide an opportunity to fix a couple of things that were not that great the first time because of various reasons.

As for TOS, the original editing switches between the regular series VFX Enterprise footage and the pilots' footage (with the missing nacelle aft spheres and the towering bridge) are annoying and I'd think that many fans would have liked to see this finally fixed, but not at the cost of accepting all that new funky CGI stuff they did - I then still rather prefer to watch the original VFX footage.

But when you take the opening shot of TNG's "Farpoint" and read in The Making of DS9 how envious they were that they couldn't do uninterrupted zoom-ins like on Babylon 5, there are opportunties worth of being explored, IMHO.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2014, 02:34 AM   #327
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Does anyone really think that affordable TOS-R-level CGI would have been an improvement over ILM's stunning TNG model shots?
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 3 2014, 07:29 PM   #328
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Does anyone really think that affordable TOS-R-level CGI would have been an improvement over ILM's stunning TNG model shots?
From some comments I've seen, apparently so. TNG-R just doesn't cut it until the repetitive establishing shots of the Enterprise are replaced with CGI shots of the ship flying by the camera from multiple angles.

However, CBS-D has finally improved their work to the point where the CGI replacement shots are *nearly* comparable to the model shots, which can be seen in Unification. It took a while to get there. If/when they start work on DS9, I'm not worried about the visual effects, whether they find the model footage or not.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 4 2014, 05:09 PM   #329
SoM
Commander
 
SoM's Avatar
 
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
If/when they start work on DS9, I'm not worried about the visual effects, whether they find the model footage or not.
Oh, they'll find the *model* footage (at least to the same extent as TNG - the odd shot may be misfiled). The question is how many of the CGI files from the later series (both individual meshes/textures and, more importantly, the actual animation files) are lost or unusable due to corruption/lack of texture or mesh resolution/incompatability with modern software. (There was a thing a while back about someone having some of the files from one of the now-bust CGI houses, but that was the one that worked more on VOY than DS9)
SoM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 7 2014, 03:23 AM   #330
Daveros
Ensign
 
Location: Australia
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

As someone who wouldn't refer to themselves as a fan of Star Trek, I have found myself really rather impressed with the Blu-Ray releases and have since gone on to purchase the whole lot of them.

Whilst I may occasionally get bored with an episode or storyline I don't find to my tastes, I do consider these releases and the quality of them to be a triumphant success (save for Enterprise, the quality of the picture just isn't there in the same way).

Anyway, what I am trying to say is this: I remember watching the odd episode of Deep Space Nine with my brother many years ago, and I did enjoy what I saw of the series (especially Wallace Shawn). I would perhaps go so far as to say it might be my favourite Star Trek series. That said, I'm not going to bother with it unless it is in HD, I wouldn't see the point.

I really hope they consider releasing this series on Blu-Ray.
Daveros is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:13 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.