RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,237
Posts: 5,348,084
Members: 24,611
Currently online: 562
Newest member: fxks323

TrekToday headlines

Insight Editions Announces Three Trek Books For 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

To Be Takei Review by Spencer Blohm
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Mulgrew: Playing Red
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Hallmark 2015 Trek Ornaments
By: T'Bonz on Jul 24

Funko Mini Spock
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

IDW Publishing Comic Preview
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

A Baby For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Jul 23

Klingon Beer Arrives In The US
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Star Trek: Prelude To Axanar
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22

Abrams Announces Star Wars: Force For Change Sweepstakes
By: T'Bonz on Jul 22


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 10 2014, 12:01 PM   #286
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The whole PAL thing makes me glad I grew up in America where there was at least no 5% speed up in NTSC. So many films I grew up watching would be jarring to watch on blu-ray because I would've become too accustomed to the higher pitch. I know someone who loves FOR YOUR EYES ONLY and was watching it for the first time on blu-ray after having watched the PAL version for 30 years. He couldn't help but feel the sound was off or wrong. When explained that the blu-ray has the correct pitch as heard in theaters, he'd understand it but with the higher pitch having been imprinted in his memory, it's hard not to feel something is off when watching the original version.

Especially films dependent on brilliant music. I can't imagine watching STAR WARS in PAL.
It's actually only a 4% speed up. And as I said earlier how many people actually noticed the higher pitch? If most people didn't notice it then it's not an issue. Sure you are more likely to notice the difference when you watch a different version but that's because you aare used to the other. But surely the counter-argument is that PAL had a higher picture quality than NTSC. Colour correction for hues/phase errors were handled autmatically by PAL.

So which would you rather have a lower picture quality and pitch perfect sound or a higher picture quality with a slightly higher sound pitch (that many might not even notice)?

Both PAL and NTSC had there advantages and disadvatnages.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 10 2014, 06:54 PM   #287
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ In case you refer to the "Special Manipulation" it's unwatchable, regardless whether it's PAL or NTSC.

(Frankly, if we had the theatrical edition in a higher SD resolution than "letterbox" - average anamorphic DVD quality - I'd just be happy with that, regardless whether it would be PAL or NTSC)

Bob
Disney has to know the incredible demand for the original versions. They'd be stupid never to remaster and reissue those. I figure they'll do it to coincide with one of the movie releases.

Unless Lucas stipulated that they never get released again.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 02:48 AM   #288
MakeshiftPython
Captain
 
MakeshiftPython's Avatar
 
Location: Ladies love Riker's beard.
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
So which would you rather have a lower picture quality and pitch perfect sound or a higher picture quality with a slightly higher sound pitch (that many might not even notice)?

Both PAL and NTSC had there advantages and disadvatnages.
Seems like an easy choice: NTSC, of course.
MakeshiftPython is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 09:53 AM   #289
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: shore leave in La Baule, France
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Not so fast, you are forgetting the NTSC "judder" effect during horizontal camera pans.

I vividly remember how the Japanese manufacturers (used to NTSC, too) were irritated when the Europeans said they didn't want that kind of crap. That helped a lot establishing 24 frames per second (fps) as the quality standard for BD.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 02:18 PM   #290
GameOn
Lieutenant Commander
 
GameOn's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

I never noticed the different in pitch of PAL material until I started watching stuff in 24fps but now I notice it all the time. I don't understand why they hardly ever bother to correct the pitch. On the other hand I can spot NTSC 3:2 pulldown a mile away and find it pretty distracting. I now use ReClock to play my old PAL DVD's at 24fps with the correct pitch.
GameOn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 04:12 PM   #291
Savage Dragon
TheSeeker
 
Savage Dragon's Avatar
 
Location: New York, NY
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

I honestly find variations in audio quality much more distracting than video quality. As I said, I tried re-watching TNG from a PAL source a few years back and gave up after a couple of minutes.
Savage Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 06:13 PM   #292
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Not so fast, you are forgetting the NTSC "judder" effect during horizontal camera pans.

I vividly remember how the Japanese manufacturers (used to NTSC, too) were irritated when the Europeans said they didn't want that kind of crap. That helped a lot establishing 24 frames per second (fps) as the quality standard for BD.

Bob
Even with Blu-ray, I still have to put up with the 3:2 pulldown crap until I shell out for a TV that can handle 24fps. Any 60Hz adds NTSC judder in order to display on the screen.

Frames: 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 8 8, etc. Those duplicating frames look pretty nasty in steady panning shots.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 07:27 PM   #293
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Not so fast, you are forgetting the NTSC "judder" effect during horizontal camera pans.

I vividly remember how the Japanese manufacturers (used to NTSC, too) were irritated when the Europeans said they didn't want that kind of crap. That helped a lot establishing 24 frames per second (fps) as the quality standard for BD.

Bob
Even with Blu-ray, I still have to put up with the 3:2 pulldown crap until I shell out for a TV that can handle 24fps. Any 60Hz adds NTSC judder in order to display on the screen.

Frames: 1 2 3 4 4 5 6 7 8 8, etc. Those duplicating frames look pretty nasty in steady panning shots.
I'm not up on the lingo, so please feel free to talk down to me like I'm a child. Does this have something to do with the herky-jerky effect I see sometimes on broadcast TV that renders some shows, IMO, unwatchable?
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 07:43 PM   #294
MacLeod
Admiral
 
Location: Great Britain
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

I do believe part of the process in transferring film from 24fps to NTSC 29.97fps can result in judder.
__________________
On the continent of wild endeavour in the mountains of solace and solitude there stood the citadel of the time lords, the oldest and most mighty race in the universe looking down on the galaxies below sworn never to interfere only to watch.
MacLeod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 11 2014, 11:32 PM   #295
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
I'm not up on the lingo, so please feel free to talk down to me like I'm a child. Does this have something to do with the herky-jerky effect I see sometimes on broadcast TV that renders some shows, IMO, unwatchable?
That's right. The jerkniess is due to that. Here's a link that explains 3:2 pulldown: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3:2_pulldown , which is the term for stretching 4 frames into 5, created judder.

For NTSC, 24 (actually 23.976) frames are stretched into 30 (actually 29.97) frames, made up of 60 interlaced frames. There's no change in the speed, but the sacrifice is that the fluid motion is affected because the image literally starts and stops several times per second.

If you watch a DVD, pause it, and forward it frame by frame, you can see this in action. Every fifth frame is a duplicate of the fourth.

With digital taking over for analog, this is gradually becoming a thing of the past. Blu-rays are encoded at 24 frames a second, but if you are using an older TV that runs at 60Hz, that judder is added back in by your player in order for it to be compatible with your TV. To get rid of the judder, you need a 120/240Hz TV.

Last edited by jimbotron; April 11 2014 at 11:42 PM.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2014, 04:39 AM   #296
SpHeRe31459
Captain
 
Location: Sacramento, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
To get rid of the judder, you need a 120/240Hz TV.
That's a bit inaccurate. You need a TV that will display at a multiple of 24 fps (72Hz and 96Hz are also acceptable in addition to 120Hz or 240Hz). Many plasma TVs use 96Hz when fed 24p content. Note that you also have ensure that 24fps mode is turned on in the player and an appropriate setting (if there is one) is turned on in the TV. Also, if you turn on the obnoxious frame interpolation (often enabled by default) with a 120Hz/240Hz LCDs you'll end up killing the natural 24fps frame cadence.
SpHeRe31459 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2014, 04:52 AM   #297
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

I was summarizing, but you're right. Not all 120+ Hz TVs can handle 24p content correctly.

Frame interpolation is garbage. All the TVs at Best Buy has it turned on, and it looks really bad. It turns films into uncanny valley cartoons.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2014, 05:04 AM   #298
Hober Mallow
Commodore
 
Location: The planet Terminus, site of the Encyclopedia Foundation on the periphery of the galaxy
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Frame interpolation is garbage. All the TVs at Best Buy has it turned on, and it looks really bad.
Again, not up on the lingo... you're talking about the soap opera effect, right?
__________________
"Beep... beep!" --Captain Pike
Hober Mallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2014, 06:08 AM   #299
jimbotron
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Yup. Another comparison is to that of a video game. It's one of those things where you know it when you see it.
jimbotron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 12 2014, 05:41 PM   #300
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: shore leave in La Baule, France
Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Frame interpolation is garbage. All the TVs at Best Buy has it turned on, and it looks really bad. It turns films into uncanny valley cartoons.
It's a matter of perspective. I think it frees us from the 24 fps image capturing limitations and gives recorded images a much more realistic and natural feel. I could live without 3D, but not without frame creation / interpolation. YMMV.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:16 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.