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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 6 2014, 01:35 PM   #271
Mage
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
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The combo of zooming and stretching is just horrible, and if there are actually people out there that think that altering an original 4:3 source into 16:9, I'd love to see some examples of that done properly, because I haven't encountered it yet.
I mentioned it earlier, but "Broken Bow" looks pretty decent. You'd never guess it was shot and completely finished in 4:3. But that's because the director was given the time to reframe it carefully shot by shot before it aired. That kind of director involvement would likely never happen with the last few seasons of a DS9-R, I'm afraid.

Really? That explains why I though the image looked somewhat off during Broken Bow. Was the rest of the series shot in 16:9 then?
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Old April 6 2014, 03:15 PM   #272
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Mage wrote: View Post
Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
The combo of zooming and stretching is just horrible, and if there are actually people out there that think that altering an original 4:3 source into 16:9, I'd love to see some examples of that done properly, because I haven't encountered it yet.
I mentioned it earlier, but "Broken Bow" looks pretty decent. You'd never guess it was shot and completely finished in 4:3. But that's because the director was given the time to reframe it carefully shot by shot before it aired. That kind of director involvement would likely never happen with the last few seasons of a DS9-R, I'm afraid.

Really? That explains why I though the image looked somewhat off during Broken Bow. Was the rest of the series shot in 16:9 then?
Yes, some of "Broken Bow" does appear to be fairly cramped and claustrophobic to me also. However, it would be uncharitable to suggest it's all like that, indeed, I'd say the majority of the episode (maybe 80%) looks perfectly well framed.

I've watched quite a few episodes of TOS-R on CBS Action here in the UK purposely to check out the 16:9 framing, and for me, that "artistic endeavor" is truly an abomination. I'd suggest, compositionally speaking, DS9 would probably turn out more like TOS if cropped to 16:9.
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Old April 6 2014, 09:24 PM   #273
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Mage wrote: View Post
Was the rest of the series shot in 16:9 then?
Yeah. I believe they made the switch to native 16:9 framing with the 9th episode "Civilization" which probably went into production safely after "Broken Bow" aired in widescreen. That's (likely not coincidentally) when the image clarity goes up on the Blu-rays. Before that episode, the image looks unnaturally soft and the grain looks stretched vertically. This is because the norm at the time at Paramount Television was to stretch the 4:3 image horizontally during telecine to fill the entire frame of the 1080/24p D5 tape dailies (instead of having the correct geometry and large black pillar bars on the sides) so that any later reframing to 16:9 would start out with the most pixels possible.

If you scrutinize the 1080p screencaps in TrekCore's Enterprise Season One review, you'll hopefully see what I'm talking about:

http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/03/rev...son-1-blu-ray/
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Old April 6 2014, 11:42 PM   #274
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Maxwell Everett wrote: View Post
Yeah. I believe they made the switch to native 16:9 framing with the 9th episode "Civilization" which probably went into production safely after "Broken Bow" aired in widescreen. That's (likely not coincidentally) when the image clarity goes up on the Blu-rays.
Many thanks for the information, Maxwell Everett - I did not know that as they say. It does make sense, as I definitely observed a small yet noticeable increase in PQ in later S1 episodes. I believe I commented on it in the ENT on BD sticky thread ages ago.
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Old April 7 2014, 07:49 AM   #275
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Well, I have the series on DVD, just got it this weekend actually, and was only able to watch a little of Broken Bow because of an MCU marathon. So the quality difference shouldn't be as noticable on dvd. Still, good to know. Thanks for the info.
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Old April 7 2014, 12:02 PM   #276
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Salinga wrote: View Post

In Germany I only remember letterboxed movies on VHS. Probably because PAL has a higher vertical resolution with 576i (compared to 480i NTSC). So having movies letterboxed in NTSC just means the picture gets too blurry, while PAL can handle it better.
Yes, PAL has higher resolution than NTSC but most PAL masters were converted from NTSC masters so the additional resolutions was not used. The same is true for older DVDs. I think (and hope) that todays PAL DVDs are mostly sourced from HD masters.
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Old April 7 2014, 12:38 PM   #277
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

d514 wrote: View Post
Yes, PAL has higher resolution than NTSC but most PAL masters were converted from NTSC masters so the additional resolutions was not used.
Unfortunately, that's true. The only true and superior PAL master I remember was the outstanding extended version of "Dances With Wolves" on UK LaserDisc. This one definitely had a higher resolution and better quality than the anamorphic (!) DVDs that were still around at the same time. It took the arrival of Blu-ray (the Japanese Hi-Vision LD notwithstanding) to send this LD into the collectors archive.

d514 wrote: View Post
The same is true for older DVDs. I think (and hope) that todays PAL DVDs are mostly sourced from HD masters.
But they still feature the "PAL speed-up" and therefore higher pitched voices. One more reason on behalf of Blu-ray.

Bob
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Old April 7 2014, 01:31 PM   #278
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

But how many people actually noticed the slightly higher pitch?
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Old April 7 2014, 04:40 PM   #279
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But how many people actually noticed the slightly higher pitch?
I never noticed it until I watched the TNG Blu-rays for the first time and wondered why everybody's voice was so low and why the theme tune sounded so much bolder.

Now I know, it's hard to unknow, y'know?
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Old April 8 2014, 04:13 PM   #280
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

MacLeod wrote: View Post
But how many people actually noticed the slightly higher pitch?
I tried to watch TNG and Enterprise from a PAL source once and it was terrible. It was like everyone was talking with a bit of helium in their lungs. I honestly don't know how people couldn't notice it.
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Old April 8 2014, 05:31 PM   #281
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

^ I guess this problem, in reverse, is what has plagued the US releases of Law & Order: UK, amirite? (Everyone's voice sounds a little too low, and the doink-doink is also off pitch)
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Old April 8 2014, 06:19 PM   #282
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
^ I guess this problem, in reverse, is what has plagued the US releases of Law & Order: UK, amirite? (Everyone's voice sounds a little too low, and the doink-doink is also off pitch)
I'm kinda surprised they don't just pitch-correct everything nowadays. The Farscape S1 DVD masters came from the UK, but they still pitch-corrected most of the episodes so they sound fine.
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Old April 8 2014, 09:05 PM   #283
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

One benefit of Blu-ray is that the PAL and NTSC standards are going kaput. Mostly everything on Blu-ray now is 23.976fps and works universally, unless there's a region code lockout.

The only exception are live performance releases, which tend to be 1080i at either 30fps (US) or 25fps (Europe).

I have the DVD for the Farscape Peacekeeper Wars miniseries which sounds pretty awful. I don't think that was corrected. Or if it was, it was overcorrected because everyone sounds off.
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Old April 10 2014, 01:03 AM   #284
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

The whole PAL thing makes me glad I grew up in America where there was at least no 5% speed up in NTSC. So many films I grew up watching would be jarring to watch on blu-ray because I would've become too accustomed to the higher pitch. I know someone who loves FOR YOUR EYES ONLY and was watching it for the first time on blu-ray after having watched the PAL version for 30 years. He couldn't help but feel the sound was off or wrong. When explained that the blu-ray has the correct pitch as heard in theaters, he'd understand it but with the higher pitch having been imprinted in his memory, it's hard not to feel something is off when watching the original version.

Especially films dependent on brilliant music. I can't imagine watching STAR WARS in PAL.
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Old April 10 2014, 10:20 AM   #285
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

^^ In case you refer to the "Special Manipulation" it's unwatchable, regardless whether it's PAL or NTSC.

(Frankly, if we had the theatrical edition in a higher SD resolution than "letterbox" - average anamorphic DVD quality - I'd just be happy with that, regardless whether it would be PAL or NTSC)

Bob
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