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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old April 2 2014, 03:14 PM   #211
jimbotron
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Ain't gonna happen. Especially for a product that's even more niche than TNG.
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Old April 2 2014, 04:00 PM   #212
Robert Comsol
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Frankly, that's what I'm afraid of (no DS9 on Blu-Ray?). I vividly remember that the first two seasons looked as crappy in SD as did TNG throughout its seven seasons.

But IIRC after the first 10 episodes of Season Three the SD picture quality increased suddenly, but I'm not aware exactly why (new post-production equipment with latest state-of-the-art technology, then?).

At least DS9 in widescreen would no longer require to CGI erase overhead microphones. Of course, I don't know to what extent that could be a relief in terms of remastering costs.

Bob
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Old April 2 2014, 07:29 PM   #213
MacLeod
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Ain't gonna happen. Especially for a product that's even more niche than TNG.
Being more niche isn't always a bad thing. Products which appeal to a niche market can sell quite well (true they might be more expensive).

Beisdes as has been mentioned it's not just about BR sales, but future TV sales. DSN is still shown Mon-Fri in the UK and we've just had a DSN weekend on SyFy (UK).
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Old April 2 2014, 10:12 PM   #214
jimbotron
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Being niche is fine. My point is that since DS9 appeals to a smaller base than TOS and TNG, it would be most unwise to mess with it. Most of the ones buying it will be hardcore fans. I, for one, would not buy it if cropped to 16x9, and I know I'm not the only one.
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Old April 2 2014, 11:05 PM   #215
LOKAI of CHERON
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Most of the ones buying it will be hardcore fans. I, for one, would not buy it if cropped to 16x9, and I know I'm not the only one.
+1

As a dyed-in-the-wool hardcore Trekker of many years standing, and a keen home cinema enthusiast to boot, there's not a rat in hell's chance I'd go for HD DS9 butchered to 1.78:1 - whatever technical jargon and justifications (spin) they may put on it.

As suggested by an earlier poster, I'd be prepared to sample some kind of hybrid version with the live action footage fully remastered and the FX "manipulated" - maybe!
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Old April 2 2014, 11:15 PM   #216
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

As long as it looks good, I don't care if it's 4:3 or 16:9. *ducks!*
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Old April 3 2014, 12:54 AM   #217
jimbotron
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Besides, with TOS and TNG already having been done the correct way, it'd be silly for CBS-D to start messing things up so late into the game.
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Old April 3 2014, 02:59 AM   #218
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

I doubt they would do a scale/crop job. I wouldn't cry about it either way, but I doubt they'd do that. Any people in-the-know who could gauge the likelihood of that hypothetical?

I think the worst SD to HD job I've seen was the '80s sitcom "The Golden Girls." I can't remember what cable network had it, but they did this thing where they upscaled it vertically, then progressively stretched it horizontally from the center of the screen until the picture filled 16x9. It was a progressive stretch, so it looked like I was watching the show through a magnifying glass if you can imagine that. Beyond awful, it was vertigo-inducing.
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Old April 3 2014, 08:24 AM   #219
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

BillJ wrote: View Post
As long as it looks good, I don't care if it's 4:3 or 16:9. *ducks!*
Usually, I'd agree, but having seen some of the chops from 4:3 to 16:9, I doubt it's going to look good.

I watch all my tv-shows on dvd in 4:3 if they were originally shot that way, otherwise it just looks disgusting.
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Old April 3 2014, 12:01 PM   #220
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Mage wrote: View Post

I watch all my tv-shows on dvd in 4:3 if they were originally shot that way, otherwise it just looks disgusting.
You really don't have a choice unless you're using the TV to stretch the picture horizontally.
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Old April 3 2014, 02:00 PM   #221
trekker670
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post

I watch all my tv-shows on dvd in 4:3 if they were originally shot that way, otherwise it just looks disgusting.
You really don't have a choice unless you're using the TV to stretch the picture horizontally.
Or zooming in, which is essentially the same thing that happens if it comes from the studio.
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Old April 3 2014, 02:28 PM   #222
Robert Comsol
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
Being niche is fine. My point is that since DS9 appeals to a smaller base than TOS and TNG, it would be most unwise to mess with it. Most of the ones buying it will be hardcore fans. I, for one, would not buy it if cropped to 16x9, and I know I'm not the only one.
Which brings me back full swing to my TNG sales figures question.
If the latest figures are anything but impressive - and that's still TNG with the larger fanbase we are talking about - what kind of sales could CBS Home Entertainment realistically expect from the DS9 hardcore fans?

This is not ENT where you essentially pull the masters from the shelf, this is DS9 where the necessary amount of remastering and costs for one season is probably still equal to remaster one season of TNG in HD.

I believe it will have to appeal to general audiences and future TV broadcasters as well.

And, again and again and again, this does not need to be accomplished by a brutal 16:9 cropping, but instead by adding the unseen areas left and right of the camera negatives to the already existing 4:3 image (in most cases).

Admittedly, some trimming at the top and bottom would occur, but frankly I don’t need to see upper parts of the set in final images like this one from “Reunion” (there was also this exterior shot of the conference lounge from an early TNG season with studio equipment still visible on the top) – which BTW wouldn’t look too bad (or even better) reframed in 16:9, I think.

Bob
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Old April 3 2014, 02:33 PM   #223
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post

I watch all my tv-shows on dvd in 4:3 if they were originally shot that way, otherwise it just looks disgusting.
You really don't have a choice unless you're using the TV to stretch the picture horizontally.
Or zooming in, which is essentially the same thing that happens if it comes from the studio.
No, that's not correct. In most cases, if this heinous procedure must be done, "smart cropping" is employed. At a very basic level, it starts with having the top of the frame just above the highest head as it were. Obviously, it gets more complex as you go on - with panning shots etc.

As bad as it is, this technique at least extracts a half tolerable frame - umm, sort of!

Zooming on your TV is most definitely not the same. That simply blows up the centre of the image - and I guarantee - for the most part, it looks bloody terrible. "Cut off" heads aplenty!
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Old April 3 2014, 02:41 PM   #224
Mage
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
trekker670 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

You really don't have a choice unless you're using the TV to stretch the picture horizontally.
Or zooming in, which is essentially the same thing that happens if it comes from the studio.
No, that's not correct. In most cases, if this heinous procedure must be done, "smart cropping" is employed. At a very basic level, it starts with having the top of the frame just above the highest head as it were. Obviously, it gets more complex as you go on - with panning shots etc.

As bad as it is, this technique at least extracts a half tolerable frame - umm, sort of.

Zooming on your TV is most definitely not the same. That simply blows up the centre of the image - and I guarantee - for the most part, it looks bloody terrible. "Cut off" heads aplenty!
Exactly this. Plus, if your blurayplayer is set to fill the screen no matter what, plus your tv wants to fill the screen, things can get conflicted. I don't scale anything. Original size or nothing. The combo of zooming and stretching is just horrible, and if there are actually people out there that think that altering an original 4:3 source into 16:9, I'd love to see some examples of that done properly, because I haven't encountered it yet. Only of the source material was in 16:9, and you have acces to the original source material, will it work. It doesn't matter of everything was shot in 16:9, if all that is left is material in 4:3, it's gonna suck when altered to fit 16:9. Top and bottom of the shots have to be cut of, which will make things look completey weird.

For example, a few weeks ago I noted somewhere in the Voyager-section of the forum how the cinematogrophy of season 5 included a lot of pretty tight close-ups of the characters. If you can cut the bottom of for scenes like that, you basicly see a face on your screen, no chin, no hair. How is that going to look good?? Spacebattles where half of the action is just chopped away. Yeah, that's gonna look great.

So yeah, my tv is set to show everything in original size, both from tv signal and my blurayplayer, and that is set to also show everything in source-size. No weird stretching and zooming for me thank you very much.
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Old April 3 2014, 02:51 PM   #225
trekker670
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

LOKAI of CHERON wrote: View Post
No, that's not correct....

Zooming on your TV is most definitely not the same. That simply blows up the centre of the image - and I guarantee - for the most part, it looks bloody terrible. "Cut off" heads aplenty!
That's why I clearly said "essentially," yes, I'm well aware that the studios use a smart technique for the cropping, but the effect is similar. Whether your doing a smart crop or zooming on the center of the image, you're losing the same amount of information. The difference, as you stated, is whether the lost information is the top of heads or not.

And, in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't condoning the cropping of the show. I am a firm believer in OAR. My statement was to make the point that we should get the shows as they were originally produced, because people who want the widescreen appearance can already do that on their own.
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