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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old November 26 2013, 05:37 PM   #91
Newspaper Taxi
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

It's settled, then. Matt Smith's Doctor is actually the 27th Doctor but we've all agreed to call him the 30th. I'm ready for 31!
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Old November 26 2013, 06:00 PM   #92
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The Mirrorball Man wrote: View Post
Emh wrote: View Post
Gaiman raises a very good point (in the manner of communication).
Hey, I'm the one who raised that point in this very thread ("There's an official version, if people are keen to communicate with other people that's the one they're going to use") and no one paid attention to me because I'm not an award-winning author!
You're absolutely right. I was really stubborn earlier in the thread, certain this would be a big thing. After watching the episode a second time, reading the plethora of posts in the forum on this subject, and spending the last few days thinking about it, I see the point of clear communication a lot better. More precisely, I realized that the general public will continue to refer each of those Doctors the same way, and honestly, I think they have greater sway than us fanboys. Gaiman's post may have pushed me over the edge of reason, but you, The Mirrorball Man, and a few other sensible-thinking people in this thread and elsewhere, led me to the edge.

Newspaper Taxi wrote: View Post
It's settled, then. Matt Smith's Doctor is actually the 27th Doctor but we've all agreed to call him the 30th. I'm ready for 31!
Sounds good to me!
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Old November 26 2013, 06:10 PM   #93
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

As I mentioned in another thread, the Time Lords have more organs than Humans and one seems to allow for "regeneration energy" that is needed to fully replace the host body when critically injured or aged too far.

It either has enough to regenerate 12 times, or can only recharge so many times before becoming too damaged itself, perhaps the only part that doesn't regenerate with them.

There's nothing to stop them operating on it to repair the damage or tank it up again during the 13th life.

The Doctor's focus is now on restoring his homeworld, I'm sure they'd be happy enough to do it after kicking out the corrupt leadership.
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Old November 27 2013, 04:00 AM   #94
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

I suggest the only acceptable way to settle the matter is to call Capaldi the Fnarg Doctor. Or the Fred Doctor.
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Old November 28 2013, 01:06 AM   #95
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

intrinsical wrote: View Post
I've been discussing this in some other forums and everybody seems split about the issue of John Hurt's character. Has he redeemed himself enough to be called The Doctor again? And if so, does that now make him the 9th Doctor, Eccelston the 10th, Tennant the 11th, Smith the 12th and Capaldi the 13th Doctor?

Or do we retain the current numbering of Doctors with Tennant as 10 and Smith as 11?
The character John Hurt plays is the Doctor.

Many actors have also played the Doctor

They are/were not playing separate characters.

Just as Michael J. Fox was not playing two characters when portraying Marty McFly from 1985 and Marty McFly from 2015

Just as Stroppy/Lazy/Stupid Teenage you.. and Sensible/Professional/Reliable Middle Aged You are not seperate..

The change is more dramatic for the Doctor you may say though.

If you would like to number these stages, go ahead. The show has outlined the order in which they happened to him. Go with that.
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Old November 28 2013, 02:28 AM   #96
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The ironic thing is it wasn't until Moffat took over that the Doctor's current numerical designation was even mentioned in the show itself.
Except both the First Doctor and the Fifth Doctor made reference to which "number" they were in The Five Doctors.

Lance wrote: View Post
^ It certainly causes a strange mess in the branding of the series. Every episode guide, every piece of merchandise (action figures etc) that have refered to the Doctor numerically, they've either all become instantly irrelevant...
Or instantly collectible.

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
But they were calling him the Doctor earlier in the Episode and so were the Daleks.
They had to call him something.

Lance wrote: View Post
The reality is: canon changes sometimes. Star Trek canon has grown to accept NX-01 despite a lot of evidence that was (previously) contrary to its existence, and I'd like to think -- I'd like to hope -- that Doctor Who fandom would be big enough to accept Moffat's blatant retcons at face value, and allow their perceptions of the 'canon' to be similarly evolved to accomodate that every Doctor since 2005 needs to be bumped up +1.

I'm not naive enough to believe that will actually happen, though. Fandoms can be a spectacularly finicky lot.
This is getting into soap opera levels of retcon, though. Soaps retcon whole families and people who can't possibly exist according to previous canon, not to mention changing peoples' ages practically overnight... I expect more straightforwardness from Doctor Who. After all, it's not like with the Master, who has had many regenerations we know nothing about.

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
That wouldn't work because Eccleston is officially apart of The Doctor Line. He regenerated from Hurt. Tentoo and The Dream Lord would be off shoot Doctor's.


My list would be of incarnations of the timelord named The Doctor is

1. Hartnell-First
2. Troughton-Second
3. Pertwee-Third
4. T. Baker-Fourth
5. Davison-Fifth
6. C. Baker-Sixth
7. McCoy-Seventh
8. McGann- Eighth
9. Hurt-War
10. Eccleston-Ninth
11. Tennant-Tenth
11.5. Tennant-Tentoo (since there was a regeneration involved and Moffat says it counted)
12. Smith-Eleventh
13a. Jayston-Valeyard (recognized by The Master as The Doctor. An amalgamation of the darkest side of the Doctor created between his twelfth and final incarnation.)
13. Capaldi- Twelth
Which one is "Tentoo"?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
13 is going to call himself "The Last Doctor" just like Hartnel called himself the Definitive Doctor.
That was in The Five Doctors, and it was Richard Hurndall, not Hartnell (he died years before the 20th Anniversary special).

Newspaper Taxi wrote: View Post
When taking the question of the number of incarnations, one must also keep in mind that:

*The Doctor has had incarnations previous to "one" (Brain of Morbious)

*The Doctor is Half Human (Telemovie)

*The Doctor is 'more than just a timelord' (7th Doctor's era)

*The 10.5/11.5/metacrisis Doctor (At the end of the fourth season of modern Who; forget the episode name)

*River Song used her regeneration energy on the Doctor, possibly altering numbers (Let's Kill Hitler)

*The Valeyard and the Curator

*The Peter Cushing Doctor
If you accept Peter Cushing, you also have to accept Barbara being the Doctor's granddaughter, instead of a human schoolteacher. At this point it's ridiculous to accept Cushing's Doctor as part of the real continuity of the character.

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
I say there is no natural limit. It was a limit imposed by the TimeLords. If there were a natural limit, how can they "give" another set to the Master (or anyone else)?

As for the numbering, you can say whatever bull you want to make up to appease your OCD, but: 1-8 remain the same, then
Hurt is 9
Eccleston is 10
Tennant is 11
Smith is 12
Capaldi will be 13.
There is no limit no with the regeneration police gone (for now).
In one episode, Four said he's had 107 lives so far, so that 12 is on shaky ground all around.
When did the Fourth Doctor say that?


This whole debate reminds me of the fuss people made when Mary Tamm's Romana regenerated into Lalla Ward's Romana. Romana II tried on several bodies (including Princess Astra's twice before settling on that body). Fans were wondering why she regenerated in the first place, and if she just burned through several regenerations for the sake of vanity.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:08 AM   #97
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

^ Tentoo aka The MetaCrisis Doctor.


The half human hybrid who was born from Ten's hand, regeneration energy and Donna Noble.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:09 AM   #98
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

Candlelight wrote: View Post
I always look at the Time Lord from a biological perspective. Basically regenerations limit who the Doctor is in my mind.

1 - Hartnell
2 - Troughton
3 - Pertwee
4 - Baker
5 - Davison
6 - Baker
7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
9 - Hurt
10 - Eccleston
11 - Tennant
12 - Smith
13 - Capaldi
If you look at it by a regeneration perspective, the latter part of your list should look like this.

7 - McCoy
8 - McGann
9 - Hurt
10 - Eccleston
11 - Tennant
12 - Tennant (He selfishly used up a regen so that Rose could have a lookalike human boy toy in the parallel universe)
13 - Smith

Beyond normal regen limit - Capaldi.

I think the X-Mas special is going to deal with this limit in some way or shape..maybe in the shape of a crack in the wall, eh?
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Old November 28 2013, 03:18 AM   #99
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Tentoo aka The MetaCrisis Doctor.


The half human hybrid who was born from Ten's hand, regeneration energy and Donna Noble.
Ah, thanks. I'd forgotten about that.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:34 AM   #100
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Tentoo aka The MetaCrisis Doctor.


The half human hybrid who was born from Ten's hand, regeneration energy and Donna Noble.
Suppose he becomes the Valeyard?
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Old November 28 2013, 03:34 AM   #101
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

Photoman15 wrote: View Post
In one episode, Four said he's had 107 lives so far, so that 12 is on shaky ground all around.
When did the Fourth Doctor say that?
"The Creature from the Pit," I believe.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
The ironic thing is it wasn't until Moffat took over that the Doctor's current numerical designation was even mentioned in the show itself.
Not the first time ever but it was, IIRC, the first time on the new series.

There had been a few instances on the classic series where numbers had been mentioned. Richard Hurndall referred to himself as "the original" in "The Five Doctors." The Time Lords also referred to Hartnell as the 1st Doctor in "The Three Doctors." (So we really need to reexamine how we interpret "The Brain of Morbius." Not really a problem since it's pretty vague on how the mind-duel works anyway.)

RTD kept the time period between the Paul McGann movie & Eccleston's debut extremely vague and there could have been all kinds of new Doctors in there that we never knew about, or not. RTD didn't really pin things down too hard at all until we saw the little flashback recap of the previous Doctors in "The Next Doctor."

Moffat was a lot more blatant, first by calling Smith's first episode "The Eleventh Hour," and then even more so when the Doctor referred to himself as "eleventh" in "The Lodger." Then we get the "Fall of the Eleventh" references in "The Wedding of River Song."

Lance wrote: View Post
While it's not exactly the same, NX-01 does pose a very similar problem. How many instances in TOS, TNG, DS9 and VOY were there where Jon Archer, his crew and the historically important first warp five ship should have been mentioned... but they weren't?

We might make allowances for phrases like 'Fifth starship to bear the name' and all that, but there are so many other occasions where NX-01 should have been a topic of conversation in 24th century Trek, but it wasn't. (Nemesis excepted, of course. )

The reality is: canon changes sometimes. Star Trek canon has grown to accept NX-01 despite a lot of evidence that was (previously) contrary to its existence, and I'd like to think -- I'd like to hope -- that Doctor Who fandom would be big enough to accept Moffat's blatant retcons at face value, and allow their perceptions of the 'canon' to be similarly evolved to accomodate that every Doctor since 2005 needs to be bumped up +1.
I can't really recall that many instances of things that are "contrary" to the existence of the NX-01. They got around a lot of the natural problems with it by having it be the Enterprise from the pre-Federation version of Starfleet, so it doesn't count for numbering purposes. The only instance I can think of where it would really have been natural to refer to the NX-01 and they didn't was when we saw all of the previous Enterprises on the rec deck in Star Trek: The Motion Picture.

Speaking of Star Trek, this whole thing with the John Hurt Doctor is reminding me of that DS9 episode where we found out that there was another Dax host between Torias & Curzon who's existence had previously been hidden because he was a murderer.
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Old November 28 2013, 03:52 AM   #102
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Moffat was a lot more blatant, first by calling Smith's first episode "The Eleventh Hour," and then even more so when the Doctor referred to himself as "eleventh" in "The Lodger." Then we get the "Fall of the Eleventh" references in "The Wedding of River Song..
And Clara (who's in a good position to know that kind of thing) tells him "You're the eleventh Doctor" in The Name of the Doctor.
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Old November 28 2013, 04:02 AM   #103
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post

I can't really recall that many instances of things that are "contrary" to the existence of the NX-01. They got around a lot of the natural problems with it by having it be the Enterprise from the pre-Federation version of Starfleet, so it doesn't count for numbering purposes. The only instance I can think of where it would really have been natural to refer to the NX-01 and they didn't was when we saw all of the previous Enterprises on the rec deck in Star Trek: The Motion Picture.
Which isn't a real problem, because that display didn't have *all* previous ships named Enterprise. It only shows two navel vessels when there have been quite a few between the Royal and US Navies. It only shows one aircraft carrier and they had been two at the time the movie was made (and a third is on the way now). So that perceived contradiction is false.
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Old November 28 2013, 04:43 AM   #104
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?



I'm still thinking the crack is going to be explained.
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Old November 28 2013, 06:56 AM   #105
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Re: Renumber The Doctors?

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
^ Tentoo aka The MetaCrisis Doctor.


The half human hybrid who was born from Ten's hand, regeneration energy and Donna Noble.
Suppose he becomes the Valeyard?
It would make sense for him to, to be honest. I don't think it's going to happen, but it fits the timeline. It also fits in interestingly with Moffat's possibly serious, possibly not comment that Matt Smith said he'd do one more season if he could split it with David Tennant.

It would unnecessarily screw up Rose Tyler's final arc, though, which I'm not sure I see the point of.
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