RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,358
Posts: 5,446,051
Members: 24,970
Currently online: 483
Newest member: LaciFalor

TrekToday headlines

Kruge Bobble Head
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Two Trek Actors In Green Room
By: T'Bonz on Oct 30

Trek UglyDolls First Look
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

New Star Trek Select Action Figure
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

Trek Actors In Elsa & Fred
By: T'Bonz on Oct 29

The Red Shirt Diaries #9
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28

Greenwood Cast In Truth
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28

Cumberbatch In Talks For Strange
By: T'Bonz on Oct 28

Two New Trek Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Oct 27

Meaney On Playing Historical Figure Durant
By: T'Bonz on Oct 27


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Star Trek - Original Series

Star Trek - Original Series The one that started it all...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 24 2013, 01:03 PM   #1
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Human Potential

In the opening scenes of "Return to Tomorrow" it is suggested that humanity may be descended from Sargon's race. Sargon and company displayed a few "god-like" powers not unlike those seen in the transformed Mitchell in "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

Assuming the descendant angle, was Mitchell's transformation somehow "catalyzed" by that relationship? Absolute power corrupting absolutely is a theme in both stories. Is humanity destined to fail, ultimately, or could humanity succeed where Sargon's people did not?

Thoughts?
__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 01:16 PM   #2
F. King Daniel
Admiral
 
F. King Daniel's Avatar
 
Location: King Daniel Into Darkness
Re: Human Potential

I seem to recall Q in TNG vaguely hinting that humanity would eventually evolve to their level (ignoring for a moment Voyager's salamander destiny). TOS seemed a lot happier to show it (human telepaths and espers in the 23rd century) than any other Trek series.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
F. King Daniel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 01:31 PM   #3
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Human Potential

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I seem to recall Q in TNG vaguely hinting that humanity would eventually evolve to their level (ignoring for a moment Voyager's salamander destiny). TOS seemed a lot happier to show it (human telepaths and espers in the 23rd century) than any other Trek series.
Yep. From Hide and Q:

Q: Well if you'll stop interrupting me. This is hardly a time to be teaching you the true nature of the universe. However, at Farpoint we saw you as savages only. We discovered instead that you are unusual creatures in your own limited ways. Ways which in time will not be so limited.
RIKER: We're growing. Something about us compels us to learn, explore.
Q: Yes, the human compulsion. And unfortunately for us, it is a power which will grow stronger century after century, aeon after aeon.
RIKER: Aeons. Have you any idea how far we'll advance?
Q: Perhaps in a future that you cannot yet conceive, even beyond us. So you see, we must know more about this human condition. That's why we've selected you, Riker, to become part of the Q, so that you can bring to us this human need and hunger, that we may understand it.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 04:54 PM   #4
Dr. Sevrin
Vice Admiral
 
Dr. Sevrin's Avatar
 
Location: Melakon's grave
Re: Human Potential

Metryq wrote: View Post
In the opening scenes of "Return to Tomorrow" it is suggested that humanity may be descended from Sargon's race. . .Assuming the descendant angle, was Mitchell's transformation somehow "catalyzed" by that relationship? . . .Is humanity destined to fail, ultimately, or could humanity succeed where Sargon's people did not?
Maybe not for Earth, but possibly for Vulcan, if you listen to how Dr. Mulhall objects to Sargon's suggestion, and what follows.

SARGON: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonising this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers.
MULHALL: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.
SPOCK: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.
SARGON: In either case, I do not know. It was so long ago, and the records of our travels were lost in the cataclysm which we loosened upon ourselves.
__________________
Dr. Sevrin is insane.
Dr. Sevrin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 12:06 AM   #5
Metryq
Captain
 
Metryq's Avatar
 
Re: Human Potential

Melakon wrote: View Post
Maybe not for Earth, but possibly for Vulcan, if you listen to how Dr. Mulhall objects to Sargon's suggestion, and what follows.
Thanks for the script excerpt, but that's why I said "may be descended." Sargon admitted that he didn't know, and Mulhall may be right. Then again, she may be wrong. Anthropologists and archaeologists were quite certain about "Clovis first" for almost a century. Now they're not so sure. And that was a mere 13,000 years or so ago.

TOS was "episodic" in the '60s sense of the word—inter-episode continuity then and now is very different. Thus any possible connection between WNMHGB and RTT is also highly speculative.

I was just thinking out loud.

Of course, only a well-grounded individual will realize his true "potential." <rimshot>
__________________
"No, I better not look. I just might be in there."
—Foghorn Leghorn, Little Boy Boo
Metryq is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 03:35 PM   #6
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Human Potential

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I seem to recall Q in TNG vaguely hinting that humanity would eventually evolve to their level (ignoring for a moment Voyager's salamander destiny). TOS seemed a lot happier to show it (human telepaths and espers in the 23rd century) than any other Trek series.
Yep. From Hide and Q:

Q: Well if you'll stop interrupting me. This is hardly a time to be teaching you the true nature of the universe. However, at Farpoint we saw you as savages only. We discovered instead that you are unusual creatures in your own limited ways. Ways which in time will not be so limited.
RIKER: We're growing. Something about us compels us to learn, explore.
Q: Yes, the human compulsion. And unfortunately for us, it is a power which will grow stronger century after century, aeon after aeon.
RIKER: Aeons. Have you any idea how far we'll advance?
Q: Perhaps in a future that you cannot yet conceive, even beyond us. So you see, we must know more about this human condition. That's why we've selected you, Riker, to become part of the Q, so that you can bring to us this human need and hunger, that we may understand it.
I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 07:11 PM   #7
Elvira
Vice Admiral
 
Elvira's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: Human Potential

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.
Arena could be simply a case of advanced technology.

Spock was able to detect the Metrons scanners, plus they had better transporters. What else?


__________________
.
no mere mortal can resist the evil of the thriller
Elvira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 07:23 PM   #8
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Human Potential

T'Girl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.
Arena could be simply a case of advanced technology.

Spock was able to detect the Metrons scanners, plus they had better transporters. What else?


BillJ may be thinking of this:

Arena wrote:
METRON: By sparing your helpless enemy who surely would have destroyed you, you demonstrated the advanced trait of mercy, something we hardly expected. We feel there may be hope for your kind. Therefore, you will not be destroyed. It would not be civilised.
KIRK: What happened to the Gorn?
GORN: I sent him back to his ship. If you like, I shall destroy him for you.
KIRK: No. That won't be necessary. We can talk. Maybe reach an agreement.
METRON: Very good, Captain. There is hope for you. Perhaps in several thousand years, your people and mine shall meet to reach an agreement. You are still half savage, but there is hope. We will contact you when we are ready.
And this:

Errand of Mercy wrote:
AYELBORNE: To wage war, Captain? To kill millions of innocent people? To destroy life on a planetary scale? Is that what you're defending?
KIRK: Well, no one wants war. But there are proper channels. People have a right to handle their own affairs. Eventually, we would have
AYELBORNE: Oh, eventually you will have peace, but only after millions of people have died. It is true that in the future, you and the Klingons will become fast friends. You will work together.
KOR: Never!
CLAYMARE: Your emotions are most discordant. We do not wish to seem inhospitable, but gentlemen, you must leave.
AYELBORNE: Yes, please leave us. The mere presence of beings like yourselves is intensely painful to us.
KIRK: What do you mean, beings like yourselves?
AYELBORNE: Millions of years ago, Captain, we were humanoid like yourselves, but we have developed beyond the need of physical bodies. That of us which you see is mere appearance for your sake.
KOR: Captain, it's a trick. We can handle them. I have an army.
(Kirk holds him back as Ayelborne and Claymare transform into pulsating lights, too bright to look at. Then they disappear.)
SPOCK: Fascinating. Pure energy. Pure thought. Totally incorporeal. Not life as we know it at all.
KIRK: But what about this planet? The fields, the buildings, this citadel?
SPOCK: Conventionalisations, I should say. Useless to the Organians. Created so that visitors such as ourselves, could have conventional points of reference.
KOR: But is all of this possible?
SPOCK: We have seen it with our own eyes. I should say the Organians are as far above us on the evolutionary scale as we are above the amoeba.
Spock's words imply that the Organians represent a possible future step in human evolution.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 08:02 PM   #9
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Human Potential

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
...
Winner!
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 05:51 AM   #10
George Steinbrenner
Fleet Admiral
 
George Steinbrenner's Avatar
 
Location: Mr. Laser Beam is in the visitor's bullpen
View George Steinbrenner's Twitter Profile
Re: Human Potential

Bomp. Bomp. Bomp-bomp-ba-bomp.

PURE ENERGY.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
George Steinbrenner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 11:38 AM   #11
Elvira
Vice Admiral
 
Elvira's Avatar
 
Location: t'girl
Re: Human Potential

CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
BillJ may be thinking of this ...
The Metron spoke of Kirk's people being "half savage," but the Metron's themselves were also apparently willing to kill and destroy, and in a matter they had no personal stake in.

The Organians were presented as obvious advanced beings, but I still feel that in the case of the Metron that they on the surface were simply another normal species in the galaxy, who possesses a few pieces of advanced technological hardware.

Again, their sensor beams were of of a sort that the Enterprise's own equipment could detect them, the Metrons were not supernaturally "sensing" the approach of the two starships, in a fashion similar to how one of the Organians was able to sensed the arrival of the Klingon fleet.

__________________
.
no mere mortal can resist the evil of the thriller
Elvira is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 01:48 PM   #12
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Human Potential

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Bomp. Bomp. Bomp-bomp-ba-bomp.

PURE ENERGY.


T'Girl wrote: View Post

The Organians were presented as obvious advanced beings, but I still feel that in the case of the Metron that they on the surface were simply another normal species in the galaxy, who possesses a few pieces of advanced technological hardware.

Again, their sensor beams were of of a sort that the Enterprise's own equipment could detect them, the Metrons were not supernaturally "sensing" the approach of the two starships, in a fashion similar to how one of the Organians was able to sensed the arrival of the Klingon fleet.
Spock picked up sensor beams but we simply don't know how those beams were generated. But, evolution is a process. The Metron "boy" was fifteen-hundred years old. The Metrons weren't on the same level as the Organians but they looked to be on the same evolutionary road.
__________________
"If I hadn't tried, the cost would have been my soul." - Admiral James T. Kirk, Star Trek III: The Search for Spock
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 05:16 PM   #13
Anwar
Vice Admiral
 
Anwar's Avatar
 
Location: Regina, SK, Canada
Re: Human Potential

It was carried onto the TNG era too, like the guy we saw in "Transfigurations" who became an energy being.
Anwar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 10:54 PM   #14
Push The Button
Captain
 
Push The Button's Avatar
 
Location: Smithfield, Rhode Island USA
Re: Human Potential

Humanity has no future. Take a walk through your local Walmart sometime and see for yourself.
__________________
Let's make sure history never forgets...
the name...
Enterprise
Push The Button is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 11:14 PM   #15
Creepy Critter
Admiral
 
Creepy Critter's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Human Potential

Anwar wrote: View Post
It was carried onto the TNG era too, like the guy we saw in "Transfigurations" who became an energy being.
True. However, I don't recall any suggestion in that episode about what's in store for humanity's future, although maybe I'm not remembering something. It was just about the next step in the evolution of John Doe's species.

It is with great sadness that I must say that Wesley Crusher is a better example about what's in store for humanity. May the gods have mercy on my soul, for mentioning that.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CorporalCaptain wrote: View Post
BillJ may be thinking of this ...
The Metron spoke of Kirk's people being "half savage," but the Metron's themselves were also apparently willing to kill and destroy, and in a matter they had no personal stake in.

The Organians were presented as obvious advanced beings, but I still feel that in the case of the Metron that they on the surface were simply another normal species in the galaxy, who possesses a few pieces of advanced technological hardware.

Again, their sensor beams were of of a sort that the Enterprise's own equipment could detect them, the Metrons were not supernaturally "sensing" the approach of the two starships, in a fashion similar to how one of the Organians was able to sensed the arrival of the Klingon fleet.

I assume that you are directing your remarks at BillJ? In any case, all BillJ said was that Arena and Errand of Mercy imply that humanity will continue to evolve, and all I did was provide the references in the episodes that I thought he was referring to.

I also happen to agree with the statement, as he phrased it, though. However, I would concur that, arguably unlike Errand of Mercy, there's nothing in Arena to suggest that humanity will evolve into a race of energy beings with godlike powers. I think that the nature of the Metrons themselves is beside the point, on the question of humanity's future.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I think Arena and Errand of Mercy both also point to an evolving humanity.
__________________
CorporalCaptain
Creepy Critter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.