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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

View Poll Results: So what did you think?
Brilliant: Geronimo. 188 77.69%
Very Good: Bow Ties are Cool! 38 15.70%
Ok: Come along Ponds. 10 4.13%
Passable: Fish Fingers and Custard. 5 2.07%
Terrible: Who da man? 1 0.41%
Voters: 242. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 28 2013, 05:23 PM   #511
Christopher
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

ATimson wrote: View Post
Before, there were the remnants of a planet there. "It's just dust and rocks now", but enough was left that the Doctor could count the 2.47 billion dead children.
Anecdotal testimony without corroboration is not evidence of anything beyond what the speaker believes to be true. "Just dust and rocks" could easily be a figurative expression to convey an emotion, rather than a factual report of a direct analysis. Narrators in fiction are often unreliable, just as people in real life are often wrong about their beliefs and assertions. So it makes no sense to cite a spoken assertion as hard proof of anything.

And it makes even less sense to assert that the Doctor counted the dead by visiting the remains of the planet. I mean, think about it. Energies sufficient to tear the planet apart would've pretty much vaporized or pulped any living being, so it would be impossible to tally the dead in that way. Whatever organic remains survived would be only a fraction of the total. Presumably he went through the TARDIS records, extrapolated from its life-form readings, past census reports, demographic calculations, etc. in order to create an estimate of the underage population of the planet before its destruction.
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Old November 28 2013, 05:24 PM   #512
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Sindatur wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post

The episode shows how avoiding war can be difficult but worth it. It was obviously an easier solution in the practical sense to just destroy both sides to end the war. However, easier doesn't mean better. In the end, the Doctor found a better solution using his creativity and ingenuity.
Personally, I find that the character in the new series is defined by his guilt and shame over the fact that he can always save the day and find solutions to all manner of problems through "creativity and ingenuity" yet when it came to the Time War the only thing that worked in the end was eradicating his own race. It sells how devastating the Time War was and reflects that war is hell and things that happen to people in war will be with them their whole lives. The man who can save anyone and change anything for the better could not do the same for his own people is a perfect way to sum up the tragic hero figure the Doctor is. And now all that is washed away just so we can have another of Moffat's "Everyone Lives!" endings.
I disagree. Not only did a man have to live a life facing the horror of War and what he had to do, a man had to live 3 lives facing that. nothing has changed for Tennant and Ecceston's Doctor's, they lived their whole life carrying that burden, and Smith's Doctor lived almost his entire life with it. Honestly, how can someone think that Four Hundred years living with that pain and guilt isn't long enough, and that somehow the drama has now been washed away and erased?
And whenever you go back and watch the Eccleston and Tennant eras that guilt will always be there, but if the guilt isn't real is that really fair to subject them to that?

And for that matter what about the other worlds lost during the Time War? The Zygons, Gelth and Nestines all lost their homeworlds too not to mention all the other races that suffered because of the war. And for that matter the return of Gallifrey might mean a restart of the Time War itslf.
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Old November 28 2013, 05:29 PM   #513
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Christopher wrote: View Post
ATimson wrote: View Post
Before, there were the remnants of a planet there. "It's just dust and rocks now", but enough was left that the Doctor could count the 2.47 billion dead children.
Anecdotal testimony without corroboration is not evidence of anything beyond what the speaker believes to be true. "Just dust and rocks" could easily be a figurative expression to convey an emotion, rather than a factual report of a direct analysis. Narrators in fiction are often unreliable, just as people in real life are often wrong about their beliefs and assertions. So it makes no sense to cite a spoken assertion as hard proof of anything.

And it makes even less sense to assert that the Doctor counted the dead by visiting the remains of the planet. I mean, think about it. Energies sufficient to tear the planet apart would've pretty much vaporized or pulped any living being, so it would be impossible to tally the dead in that way. Whatever organic remains survived would be only a fraction of the total. Presumably he went through the TARDIS records, extrapolated from its life-form readings, past census reports, demographic calculations, etc. in order to create an estimate of the underage population of the planet before its destruction.
The Doctor said nothing about finding dead bodies just that there's nothing left of Gallifrey but dust, it's possible he was able to mentially count the dead children. You keep making the mistake of thinking Time Lords are human, they aren't they are mentially superior in a number of ways.
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Old November 28 2013, 05:37 PM   #514
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

intrinsical wrote: View Post
Precisely. You've taken the words right out of my mouth.. er fingers. The Doctor went one step beyond what the magician did. He made the two outcomes look identical in observation. Any observer present cannot distinguish what got killed, The Doctor himself or a 100% accurate facsimile of The Doctor.
You're missing my point. You're assuming that's the case, but since there's no evidence of change, you have no reason to assume that's true. The simpler interpretation, the one favored by Occam's Razor, is that there was no change, that it happened that way all along and we -- and the Doctor -- just didn't know it until then. It's far more likely that we were simply wrong than it is that the whole universe transformed itself along with our perceptions of it.

As Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You're claiming that history was changed in a way that leaves no evidence, so it's a claim that's impossible to prove. Thus, there's no legitimate reason to favor it over the simpler interpretation. If the evidence is consistent, the logical conclusion is that the events were consistent, that nothing has been changed except our understanding of what really transpired.
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Old November 28 2013, 05:48 PM   #515
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Tom wrote: View Post
It would have been cool to see some random people regenerating in the background during the battle in Arcadia would make it feel more like Gallifrey than some other random planet the Daleks were attacking.
There has to be some life left in order for a regeneration to occur - thing about the Dalek weapons is when the thing hits you, you're dead ergo no regeneration.

Only exception I can think of is when they paralysed Ian's legs in The Daleks. Any other time it's shoot to kill.
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Old November 28 2013, 05:55 PM   #516
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

^^The Tenth Doctor was still able to regenerate after being shot by a Dalek in The Stolen Earth. The Eleventh Doctor didn't even need to regenerate after being shot by a Dalek in The Big Bang.

Although if we assume regeneration is something only the Time Lords can do, than it stands to reason most we saw in the Arcadia scene were just ordinary Gallifreyans.
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Old November 28 2013, 05:56 PM   #517
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Marc wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
It would have been cool to see some random people regenerating in the background during the battle in Arcadia would make it feel more like Gallifrey than some other random planet the Daleks were attacking.
There has to be some life left in order for a regeneration to occur - thing about the Dalek weapons is when the thing hits you, you're dead ergo no regeneration.

Only exception I can think of is when they paralysed Ian's legs in The Daleks. Any other time it's shoot to kill.
The Doctor's been hit three times by Dalek weapons(Frontier In Space, The Stolen Earth and The Big Bang) survived all three and didn't need to regenerate afterward.
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Old November 28 2013, 06:29 PM   #518
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
^^The Tenth Doctor was still able to regenerate after being shot by a Dalek in The Stolen Earth. The Eleventh Doctor didn't even need to regenerate after being shot by a Dalek in The Big Bang.

Although if we assume regeneration is something only the Time Lords can do, than it stands to reason most we saw in the Arcadia scene were just ordinary Gallifreyans.
Wasn't saying about the need to regenerate after being hit by dalek weapon, - was saying that generally when you're shot by dalek you're dead. If you're dead already there's no regeneration. End result is those Gallifreyans hit when the Daleks invaded Arcadia were killed thus they couldn't regenerate.
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Old November 28 2013, 06:45 PM   #519
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Honestly, I find the whole thing takes away from the threat the Time Lords posed. I'm sure the Doctor always knew there were innocent people on Gallifrey that didn't deserve to die and that contributed to the guilt he's felt. The fact that he, the man who abhors violence death went ahead and committed genocide against two races, one of them his own emphasises just how bad the Time War had gotten and how much of a threat the Daleks and even the Time Lords posed.
But now all that is negated and the Doctor simply only thought he committed the atrocity that has haunted him all this time.
The episode shows how avoiding war can be difficult but worth it. It was obviously an easier solution in the practical sense to just destroy both sides to end the war. However, easier doesn't mean better. In the end, the Doctor found a better solution using his creativity and ingenuity.
Personally, I find that the character in the new series is defined by his guilt and shame over the fact that he can always save the day and find solutions to all manner of problems through "creativity and ingenuity" yet when it came to the Time War the only thing that worked in the end was eradicating his own race. It sells how devastating the Time War was and reflects that war is hell and things that happen to people in war will be with them their whole lives. The man who can save anyone and change anything for the better could not do the same for his own people is a perfect way to sum up the tragic hero figure the Doctor is. And now all that is washed away just so we can have another of Moffat's "Everyone Lives!" endings.
By Smith's time as the Doctor, we had pretty much completely moved beyond the guilty Doctor anyway, so nothing lost there. No way was the series going to get stuck on that guilt for the entire run any way. It had to move on.

And, as it was pointed out by davejames, this solution took 3 Doctors and hundreds of years to figure out and implement. (And the eventual involvement of all Doctors.) Several Doctors still had to live with the guilt. So, it wasn't just washed away.

I thought it was great!

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Old November 28 2013, 06:58 PM   #520
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
^^The Tenth Doctor was still able to regenerate after being shot by a Dalek in The Stolen Earth.
But that was a glancing blow:

http://youtu.be/9q2hRk8vv4s?t=1m12s

Note that the negative-image effect only encompasses part of his body, and the bolt continues past him. No doubt this was done specifically to justify why he wasn't killed instantly.


The Eleventh Doctor didn't even need to regenerate after being shot by a Dalek in The Big Bang.
But that was a long-dead Dalek that was partly restored by the Pandorica and only had limited energy.


Although if we assume regeneration is something only the Time Lords can do, than it stands to reason most we saw in the Arcadia scene were just ordinary Gallifreyans.
I am still unaware of any basis for this idea. It's conceivable -- if there's zero social mobility or intermarriage between the nobility and plebeian class -- but as far as I know, there's no evidence to suggest it. I don't know where the idea came from.
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Old November 28 2013, 07:14 PM   #521
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Although if we assume regeneration is something only the Time Lords can do, than it stands to reason most we saw in the Arcadia scene were just ordinary Gallifreyans.
I am still unaware of any basis for this idea. It's conceivable -- if there's zero social mobility or intermarriage between the nobility and plebeian class -- but as far as I know, there's no evidence to suggest it. I don't know where the idea came from.
Yea, the Audios suggest The Time Lords' Regeneation came from Evolution, travelling through the Time Vortex, and River's situation lends credence to the fact that the current TV Show accepts/honors that theory. A Race Evolving like that is going to filter through the entire Population, unless Breeding is carefully kept selective
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Old November 28 2013, 08:19 PM   #522
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

It doesn't do wood. My goodness, that scene is brilliant. It is a minor jewel, warming us up for the good stuff.

Think about it. If the three Doctors had actually disintegrated the door, one can only imagine the outrage erupting on the Internet. How come you ignore all the rules whenever it turns convenient, eh? No matter how clever the solution was, you can't help but picture people like me so eager to grab their keyboard, they get caught off guard by the people rolling down the aisles laughing around them when Clara bursts in.

It is the first minor occasion where a hopeless situation was not only shown to have multiple alternative exits, but all the wilder ones were all shot down. I don't think it's completely intentional, but that perfectly fits with the larger narrative, and it is a smaller set up for the resolution in the end (the larger being the Zygons ofc).

I am with Moffat and Clara on this, if there is one thing that I can't imagine watching is the Doctor ever murdering everyone on Gallifrey. If I did see it, I would find it difficult to believe. When he brags about it, it is one thing – it happened off screen, it was necessary, we don't see it... But if I imagine the actual moment in which he does it, I am completely unable to picture him doing anything but him stepping back over and over until he finally decides not to do it, which is kinda what went on in the episode.

If there are things that just can't happen, they are the Doctor using weapons of mass destruction and London going out in by self-inflicted nuke. And the sonic doing wood.
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Old November 28 2013, 08:43 PM   #523
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

I have no problem with the idea that the sonic can handle wood, but needs centuries of computing time to do so, thus making it unfeasible under normal circumstances. It also makes sense to me that the War Doctor would be the one best qualified to figure out a way to use the sonic screwdriver for destructive purposes.

Really, though, the idea that it couldn't handle wooden doors was always kind of iffy. One, it's sonic, and wood conducts sound. Two, it's a screwdriver, and a lot of wooden things have screws holding them together.

Although I suppose it's not as silly as the "deadlock" term RTD coined, and which suddenly became a property of almost every kind of door or lid in the universe.
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Old November 28 2013, 08:51 PM   #524
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Although I suppose it's not as silly as the "deadlock" term RTD coined, and which suddenly became a property of almost every kind of door or lid in the universe.
If I ever have to brace a door shut by jamming a wooden log between it and a wall, I'm going to say it's "Deadlocked" from now on.

Same principle, really. It's not like you can un-brace that door with a screwdriver anyway! ;-)

(besides, you'd think with all the times that the Doctor has encountered a deadlocked door, he'd have created a setting for that by now. After all, he's been facing those doors since at least his Eighth incarnation!)
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Old November 28 2013, 09:18 PM   #525
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Re: The Day of the Doctore Review Thread (Spoilers?)

Basically the "deadlock seal" was to the RTD-era sonic screwdriver as kryptonite is to Superman. Once you give a character or object too much power, you have to concoct an arbitrary weakness to compensate.
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