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Old November 25 2013, 07:37 PM   #76
Deckerd
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

I wasn't meaning you CC. However initial capitalisation is something that has been waning over time, so Tolkein would habitually have used it much more than modern orthography.
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Old November 25 2013, 11:48 PM   #77
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Shanndee wrote: View Post
Thank you. I have just started reading this thread and I was preparing myself to come in to say the same thing. I think you stated it better than I could...so thank you!
Glad to be of service!

I had stopped reading fantasy for a long time, due in large part to the lack of believable/relatable female characters and story lines. I know authors like Tolkien were a product of their time, but what is the excuse for some of the more current authors?
Yeah, same. The more time went on, the more irritated I became at the fact that in fantasy (and sci-fi), for ever story centered on a woman, there are like thirty centered on a man. And the same characters keep getting recycled, too (grizzled tough-as-nails space marine, young idealistic farmboy who turns out to be the chosen one, etc). It's partly why I haven't read through a novel in ages aside from a few Trek books. The other reason being that whenever I try to read books, I can't escape the feeling that I could be spending that time writing my own instead!

Interestingly, my frustration with the status of women as still being in the extreme minority when it comes to strong, important characters (let alone being the main protagonist) in these genres has influenced my own writing to a rather large degree. The vast majority of my story ideas have a female lead and several female characters as main supporting cast.

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Well, if it's part of a prophecy or something I'm fine with that.. but the implication in the text and the film is that she killed the witch king because she was woman, and that's plain asinine.
I never took that as the implication in the film, and I've never heard anyone else interpret it that way either.

What I take away from the film version isn't even that Eowyn's moment was the culmination of prophecy laid eons ago, but that the "no man can kill me" thing was never meant to be taken literally, at face-value, anyway. It was akin to a slogan for the Witch-King as one of the biggest, baddest threats the Mordor forces had at their disposal. Given his power and abilities, for any mortal being to be able to kill him is unlikely in the EXTREME, and that's really what it was: "No mortal can defeat me." It doesn't mean that - literally - if a "man" tries to kill him, the sword will just bounce off or something, but if a "non-man" does it, it will work. Seriously, how would that even make sense? Would this extend beyond man vs. woman to other races, as well? If Faramir stabbed the WK in the face, it would do nothing, because he's a "man", but if Gimli or Legolas or an Orc stabbed him, it would work because they aren't "men"? It was clearly meant to mean "I cannot be felled by mere mortal hands", and clearly meant to indicate his power over mortals, and not meant to literally mean "a man cannot kill me no matter how true he strikes, oh but a woman or another race can totally kill me."

As for Eowyn's line: that was a bit of defiance, a hotheaded declaration made in the heat of the moment. Nothing more.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:36 AM   #78
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

I think you missed the completely simple plot device just as much as FSM.
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Old November 26 2013, 12:42 AM   #79
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

And in fact, the Witch-king was also harmed by Merry, who was not a man.

Prophecy. Whatchagonnado?
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Old November 26 2013, 01:36 AM   #80
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I think you missed the completely simple plot device just as much as FSM.
If you say so. What I described with the whole "no mortal can defeat me" bit was how it came across to me in the movies - specifically, interpreting the events of the movies using nothing but the movies, and ignoring the books, which was what I was getting at. The last parts of my post were mainly just there as a response to what FSM said.
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Old November 26 2013, 06:15 AM   #81
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
And in fact, the Witch-king was also harmed by Merry, who was not a man.
Thanks to his Barrow blade, which was forged by a dead man.

As far as prophecy loophole kills go, I'd say this was a TRIPLE KILL.
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Old November 26 2013, 11:05 AM   #82
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

That guy was toast and he didn't even know it.
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Old November 26 2013, 11:10 AM   #83
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Regardless of prophesies or technicalities, I just think the scene felt forced and pedantic.
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Old November 26 2013, 11:13 AM   #84
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Forced or pedantic? Hmmm, no.
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Old November 26 2013, 02:33 PM   #85
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

[Dennis]

No.

[/Dennis]
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Old November 26 2013, 10:33 PM   #86
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Man or not, nobody gets stabbed in the face and has a good time.
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Old November 26 2013, 10:36 PM   #87
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I'm just saying I know better than Tolien.
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Old November 27 2013, 12:11 AM   #88
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

If I said that I didn't mean to. If I didn't, then I was misquoted. In any case , the author, great as he was, was only human. There are things I don't like about his story.
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Old November 27 2013, 02:05 AM   #89
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Regardless of prophesies or technicalities, I just think the scene felt forced and pedantic.
Is this a multiple choice question? Because only one of the choices even makes sense...
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Old November 28 2013, 07:50 PM   #90
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
If I said that I didn't mean to. If I didn't, then I was misquoted.
No, it's not a misquote. Here's the whole post (#65):
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
I'm just saying I know better than Tolien. All I'm saying is that while he is a fantastic writer, this is a small bit of writing from an otherwise great work that I find insultingly stupid.
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