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Old November 25 2013, 02:02 AM   #61
Gaith
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

^ And being a c-section baby doesn't mean you're not "of woman born", but, hey...
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Old November 25 2013, 03:08 AM   #62
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Both the book and the movie did this badly. She is a Man in that she is from the race of Men. And all races have male and female.
So you know better than Tolkien about his intention?
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Old November 25 2013, 04:10 AM   #63
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

"But no living man am I!"
By saying "no living man am I" she is telling her antagonist that he does not know her, as in his foe.
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Old November 25 2013, 05:24 AM   #64
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

In the book: Without Merry having first used his blade from the Barrow-downs, which had been prepared in ancient times with spells to fight the Witch-king, owyn couldn't have done any damage to Witch-king.

It went like this. She beheaded the Witch-king's steed. When the Witch-king, having gotten up, had then broken her shield and her shield arm with his mace and was preparing to kill her with a second strike, Merry struck from behind with the Barrow-blade, which dispelled the Witch-king's magic and caused him to miss. In that moment, she was able to then strike the killing blow.

Of the Barrow-blade [The Return of the King]: "No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
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Old November 25 2013, 07:23 AM   #65
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

I'm just saying I know better than Tolien. All I'm saying is that while he is a fantastic writer, this is a small bit of writing from an otherwise great work that I find insultingly stupid.
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Old November 25 2013, 11:11 AM   #66
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

I think you misunderstand the meaning of 'man'. Prof Tolkein was a linguist and an expert in Old English, so he would never have made that mistake. "The race of men" means human or homo sapiens if you will. In the plural there is no gender. In the singular it is a different word.
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Old November 25 2013, 05:11 PM   #67
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Deckerd wrote: View Post
I think you misunderstand the meaning of 'man'. Prof Tolkein was a linguist and an expert in Old English, so he would never have made that mistake. "The race of men" means human or homo sapiens if you will. In the plural there is no gender. In the singular it is a different word.
Yes, right. So she is a man in the sense that she is from the race of Men that, in turn, should not be able to kill the witch king, regardless of her gender. Like I said, I respect Tolkien, and he was a linguist, blah blah, blah and he can still write a single godawful moment just as surely as any human being can.
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Old November 25 2013, 05:31 PM   #68
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

I thought it was brilliant. My point was that it goes quite a bit deeper than simply that owyn could kill the Witch-king because she's a woman. My reading of it is that she was the one foretold in ancient times to kill him. No other being in all of Middle-earth was destined to do what she did, and her moment there was a part of the conjunction of magic and weaponry specifically forged over a thousand years before to fight the Witch-king. Further, it's in keeping with the themes of the book that Merry's part was quite a bit overshadowed by owyn's.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:41 PM   #69
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Well, if it's part of a prophecy or something I'm fine with that.. but the implication in the text and the film is that she killed the witch king because she was woman, and that's plain asinine.
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Old November 25 2013, 06:47 PM   #70
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

You're basically upset because the Witch King was killed by a loophole?
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Old November 25 2013, 06:55 PM   #71
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Well, if it's part of a prophecy or something I'm fine with that.. but the implication in the text and the film is that she killed the witch king because she was woman, and that's plain asinine.
That's not the implication of the text, as I have shown.
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Old November 25 2013, 07:03 PM   #72
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Yes, right. So she is a man in the sense that she is from the race of Men that, in turn, should not be able to kill the witch king, regardless of her gender. Like I said, I respect Tolkien, and he was a linguist, blah blah, blah and he can still write a single godawful moment just as surely as any human being can.
How much are you prepared to propagate an untruth? She said "I am no living man" in direct response to what her adversary said. It was precise and correct. If you don't understand the language you shouldn't really make judgements about it.
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Old November 25 2013, 07:11 PM   #73
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Deckerd wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Yes, right. So she is a man in the sense that she is from the race of Men that, in turn, should not be able to kill the witch king, regardless of her gender. Like I said, I respect Tolkien, and he was a linguist, blah blah, blah and he can still write a single godawful moment just as surely as any human being can.
How much are you prepared to propagate an untruth? She said "I am no living man" in direct response to what her adversary said. It was precise and correct. If you don't understand the language you shouldn't really make judgements about it.
Indeed, even in the Witch-king's taunt,
"No living man may hinder me!"
man is not capitalized.

Nor is it capitalized in Glorfindel's prophecy (RotK, App. A, page 412 my edition):
"Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
When Tolkien spoke of "Man-kind," it was capitalized, or capitalized as Men.

My reading of this is that the Witch-king made a foolish mistake in his reading of the prophecy against him; the mistake wasn't Tolkien's (though, arguably, man might have better been rendered as Man in the Witch-king's words, if that was what the Witch-king thought).
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Old November 25 2013, 07:17 PM   #74
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

It wasn't that complicated. Nobody expected women to go into battle. Nobody. It was completely simple as in all his tricksy conundrums. Incidentally 'mankind' does not need to be capitalised to describe humans. It's a different word than the modern word 'man'. I don't understand why people are suddenly insisting that English words must have only one meaning. I refuse to listen to this refuse any more.
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Old November 25 2013, 07:29 PM   #75
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Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

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It wasn't that complicated. Nobody expected women to go into battle. Nobody. It was completely simple as in all his tricksy conundrums.
Exactly.

Incidentally 'mankind' does not need to be capitalised to describe humans. It's a different word than the modern word 'man'.
I realize that, but Tolkien rendered it as "Man-kind" (cf. RotK, App. A, page 389, my edition), at least in spots.

I don't understand why people are suddenly insisting that English words must have only one meaning.
I'm not.
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