RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,777
Posts: 5,434,408
Members: 24,840
Currently online: 472
Newest member: Reece101

TrekToday headlines

Trek Comics Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

German Volkswagen Campaign Features Trek Actors
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Shatner And Nimoy In Trek 3?
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

The Art of John Alvin Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 23

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 23 2013, 01:20 PM   #46
Noddy
Captain
 
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Default really? I think the maleness of LOTR stands out quite a bit these days.
I don't mean default in terms of what material is being produced--even though it is still predominately white male leads, but in terms of mindset. White straight male is the default mind set and anything that is not that is "other," and judged very differently. If you are a female character in a genre film, the audience base first seems to judge you by your attractiveness. Not your ability, not your smart, but if you got great boobs.

This thread is a fine example.

Not which female character of Middle Earth was a great fighter, helped the heroes, WAS a hero, but who was "hot."
So a thread designed to discuss a certain aspect to the characters means that those who create it are incapable of appreciating other aspects of the characters? For what it's worth, my favorite Eowyn moment has little to do with her physical appearance; I love the moment in RotK where she responds to the Witch-King's taunting by removing her helmet and saying "I am no man!", before killing the evil S.O.B. Great moment.
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 01:43 PM   #47
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

The fact is, even in a trilogy, each movie is but so long. We do not have time to "get to know" characters. How delish the actors playing them are is just a shortcut to getting us to like their characters. You see it in life even more than in the movies, too. Beautiful people tend to be the most popular. It isn't an absolute, but, I mean ... nobody would be surprised by that, surely.

Strength of character and whatnot mainly comes in the form of cliché, anyway. And the bad guy often is an evil Capitolist, a Nazi, a Drug Dealer ... someone we're obviously meant to want to see get their asses kicked. And Sauron couldn't be more of a cliché, in how absolutely EVIL he is ... he has no middle ground. No grey area. He's only here to be destroyed. With a villian like that in your movie, how can you expect your heroes to shine with such great depth and sophistocation?

It's non sequitur, when you think about it. And very often, baddies are played by an actor who, even if they were hot in their day, have aged into character actors. The young studd usurps, or just kicks the living shit out of the old man, in most of these movies, and runs things the way they "should" be run. Lord of the Rings falls in line with that cliché, very nicely.
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 07:15 PM   #48
Shanndee
Commodore
 
Shanndee's Avatar
 
Location: Canada
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Saito S wrote: View Post

Eowyn is definitely one of my favorite characters out of the whole lot, in part because - as had been pointed out in this thread - she was much more ordinary, as a woman of Middle-Earth, than the likes of Arwen or Galadriel, in addition to being the only one to actually ride into battle and acquit herself there. The story of her personal struggle - not only against the threat of Mordor that literally everyone in the story faces, but also against the expectations of her society - was easily the most compelling of any of the non-Hobbit characters.



And as far as this thread: it's been said many times before, but there's nothing inherently wrong with acknowledging that, yes, we humans tend to often find other humans attractive/cute/hot/whatever word you want to use. The problem is when a character or the actor portraying them (women, more often than not) are reduced to having no more value than their level of attractiveness/hotness/what have you.

Thank you. I have just started reading this thread and I was preparing myself to come in to say the same thing. I think you stated it better than I could...so thank you!

I had stopped reading fantasy for a long time, due in large part to the lack of believable/relatable female characters and story lines. I know authors like Tolkien were a product of their time, but what is the excuse for some of the more current authors?


re:this thread
Exactly. My friends and I are currently enamoured with Tom Mison (Sleepy Hollow). Do we comment on his attractiveness, of course! But these comments are always part of a larger conversation. There is nothing wrong with "hot", but grading people like pieces of meat and judging them against each other is hugely problematic.
__________________
"Nolite te bastardes carborundorum" Margaret Atwood

"Everything will be alright in the end; if it is not alright, it is not the end" Numerous sources

Last edited by Shanndee; November 23 2013 at 07:19 PM. Reason: my comments appeared in quote block
Shanndee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 07:17 PM   #49
Professor Zoom
Vice Admiral
 
Professor Zoom's Avatar
 
Location: Idealistic
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Noddy wrote: View Post
Professor Zoom wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Default really? I think the maleness of LOTR stands out quite a bit these days.
I don't mean default in terms of what material is being produced--even though it is still predominately white male leads, but in terms of mindset. White straight male is the default mind set and anything that is not that is "other," and judged very differently. If you are a female character in a genre film, the audience base first seems to judge you by your attractiveness. Not your ability, not your smart, but if you got great boobs.

This thread is a fine example.

Not which female character of Middle Earth was a great fighter, helped the heroes, WAS a hero, but who was "hot."
So a thread designed to discuss a certain aspect to the characters means that those who create it are incapable of appreciating other aspects of the characters?
I don't know. You did choose perhaps the shallowest of aspects to talk about. Please continue if you want, but at least recognize it for what it is.
__________________
Batman does not eat nachos.
Professor Zoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 08:23 PM   #50
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Noddy wrote: View Post
For what it's worth, my favorite Eowyn moment has little to do with her physical appearance; I love the moment in RotK where she responds to the Witch-King's taunting by removing her helmet and saying "I am no man!", before killing the evil S.O.B. Great moment.
I found that moment horribly overcooked. It would have been great had she stabbed him and then muttered "I am no man" while walking away. But to take off her helmet, stand real tall, and gloat about how awesome she is to be a female warrior while the very dangerous baddie is still very much alive was lame audience pandering.
Gaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 10:16 PM   #51
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Gaith wrote: View Post
It would have been great had she stabbed him and then muttered "I am no man" while walking away. But to take off her helmet, stand real tall, and gloat about how awesome she is to be a female warrior while the very dangerous baddie is still very much alive was lame audience pandering.
Even this would be a bit of a cliché. Can there really be degrees of cheese? Admittedly, though ... it is a Catch22, of sorts. Were I Peter Jackson, I would've just left the "I'm a woman" bit out, because for one ... it's evident, is it not? Just have her take her helmet off and indicate he's surprised by the fact and just have her dispose of him quick and tidy.

But if there was an insistance the line be in there, give it to some nobody on-looker to comment on. Having it come from somebody nameless, in a way, gives it more "weight," if you like. But I really do hate how her Moment of Triumph has more to do with the gender she was born as, than anything else she brought to the battle.
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 10:36 PM   #52
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Gaith wrote: View Post
It would have been great had she stabbed him and then muttered "I am no man" while walking away. But to take off her helmet, stand real tall, and gloat about how awesome she is to be a female warrior while the very dangerous baddie is still very much alive was lame audience pandering.
Even this would be a bit of a cliché. Can there really be degrees of cheese? Admittedly, though ... it is a Catch22, of sorts. Were I Peter Jackson, I would've just left the "I'm a woman" bit out, because for one ... it's evident, is it not? Just have her take her helmet off and indicate he's surprised by the fact and just have her dispose of him quick and tidy.

But if there was an insistance the line be in there, give it to some nobody on-looker to comment on. Having it come from somebody nameless, in a way, gives it more "weight," if you like. But I really do hate how her Moment of Triumph has more to do with the gender she was born as, than anything else she brought to the battle.
The book is better with that, there is no dialogue, just a straight up fight. The scene would have played better as it was in the book, perhaps even let the Witch King have his moment of gloating then get sworded. As for the orc general chasing after her, that just under cut her killing the King of Angmar. I preferred the book with her passing out from injuries in the battle to being chased by the orc flunky. It's like Superman stopping the missiles and capturing Luthor only to be nearly taken out by Otis.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 23 2013, 11:54 PM   #53
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
What? No one cares for Rose Cotton? You buncha Hobbit haters.
Short people got nobody
Oi!
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 12:13 AM   #54
teacake
Admiral
 
teacake's Avatar
 
Location: Militant Janeway True Path Devotees Compound. With Sehlats.
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

One thing I never understood about Tolkien. Why did he name them Saruman and Sauron, why didn't he make these names sound more distinctly different?
__________________

"Damnit Spock. God damnit!" Kirk ST:V
■ ■ ■
Janeway does Melbourne
teacake is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 12:30 AM   #55
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
What? No one cares for Rose Cotton? You buncha Hobbit haters.
Short people got nobody
Oi!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA
teacake wrote: View Post
One thing I never understood about Tolkien. Why did he name them Saruman and Sauron, why didn't he make these names sound more distinctly different?
Yeah, that was distracting the first time through.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 12:36 AM   #56
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
Short people got nobody
Oi!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA
That's great.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 12:59 AM   #57
Gov Kodos
Admiral
 
Gov Kodos's Avatar
 
Location: Gov Kodos Regretably far from Boston
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Gov Kodos wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
Oi!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NvgLkuEtkA
That's great.
Wasn't sure if anyone would remember that old ditty.
__________________
We are quicksilver, a fleeting shadow, a distant sound... our home has no boundaries beyond which we cannot pass. We live in music, in a flash of color... we live on the wind and in the sparkle of a star! Endora, Bewitched
Gov Kodos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 01:07 AM   #58
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

I got the reference; I love that song.
Gaith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 24 2013, 04:27 PM   #59
Set Harth
Rear Admiral
 
Set Harth's Avatar
 
Location: Police State
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

teacake wrote: View Post
One thing I never understood about Tolkien. Why did he name them Saruman and Sauron, why didn't he make these names sound more distinctly different?
You think that's bad? What about the elves in The Silmarillion? Fingon? Fingolfin? Finarfin? Finrod Felagund???

Gov Kodos wrote:
The book is better with that, there is no dialogue, just a straight up fight.
All the dialogue in the book's version is before the fight:

"Begone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!"

"Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shrivelled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye."

"Do what you will; but I will hinder it, if I may."

"Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"

"But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am, Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Begone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."
__________________
"Your advertising's just dandy. Folks'd never guess you ain't got a thing to sell."

Last edited by Set Harth; November 24 2013 at 04:39 PM.
Set Harth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 12:37 AM   #60
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: Women of LotR/The Hobbit

Both the book and the movie did this badly. She is a Man in that she is from the race of Men. And all races have male and female.
__________________
See, the problem is that you are using your cards to show me what cards you have, and if you can't see that this is viciously circular, then there is no point in continuing
Flying Spaghetti Monster is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:09 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.