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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old November 19 2013, 01:49 AM   #1
pontypool
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
tng birthright part 2

In this episode, Worf withholds information about the kitimer survivors when questioned by Picard.
Picard said "i understand" and based on his body language I am unsure if he really did understand the truth of what Worf said, or just took his lie at face value.
I am curious to know what other peoples views are in this.

Furthermore, does anyone else see Worf as being insubordinate?
aswell as this episode where he has lied to a superior officer, Don't forget that one episode where Worf refused to return to the enterprise and instead went off to help the new klingon emperor Goron, on board his ship, there is also another episode where Worf leaves the enterprise and gets revenge for duros killing Worfs mate. (Btw was they actually married i thought they just considered it)
Obviously Picard was not pleased and stated that if he was a federation officer, he must act like it, even if he did follow klingon law.. I beleive Picard also made a reprimand on klingons record for this.

So what do you think? as Picard stated, he allows for cultural diversity, but all federation officers have to put the federation first, basically, as that is their main position. I am surprised he got away with so many things. resigning the federation to fight in a klingon civil war could be seen as federation involvement, that alone should have got him expelled from the federation.
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Old November 19 2013, 02:21 AM   #2
Melakon
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Re: tng birthright part 2

First, I think this should be in the TNG Forum instead of General Discussion.

Worf resigning his commission legally removes the problem of Federation involvement in a Klingon internal matter. That's why he resigned. It's no different from someone in the Union Army formally resigning to fight for their home state of Virginia during the American Civil War.

I've not seen "Birthright" in years, and it was never one of my favorites, so I'm hazy on specific details.
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Old November 19 2013, 04:25 PM   #3
Misfit Toy
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Re: tng birthright part 2

Moving to TNG...
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Old November 19 2013, 08:25 PM   #4
pontypool
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Re: tng birthright part 2

Yes, but even so.. In such a delicate matter as a klingon civil war, if federation officers are seen 'temporarily' transfering to a particular klingdon side, it could easily have political implications. Besides, if you're in the army, you cannot just resign whenever you wish, don't you have to complete set terms? and if worf is going to resign whenever something which he considers higher priority takes place, I should think he isn't suited to being in starfleet.
What is the guy gonna do if there's a war between starfleet and the klingon empire? as far as some admirals are concerned his loyalties could be in question.
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Old November 19 2013, 11:08 PM   #5
R. Star
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Re: tng birthright part 2

Worf did the right thing. His Klingon morals and loyalty to his House and people conflicted with his duties as a Starfleet officer and thus he resigned. They accepted him back later, likely because he was an effective officer not to mention all the resources they expended in training him. As for the political troubles of Federation officers playing mercenary for the Klingons, I think that would be small change compared to Picard taking a fleet into Klingon space to blockade the Romulan border.

As for Worf's actions in Birthright, saying Worf was being insubordinate is a stretch to say the least. I took Picard saying, "I understand" to be his acknowledgement there was more going on, and that it needed to be kept quiet. Certainly Worf was on leave at the time and wasn't acting as a member of Starfleet in any capacity during his foray to find his father and the other survivors. So even if you take that "lie" to mean he was being insubordinate, Picard has no jurisdiction or involvement in the situation anyways.
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Old November 30 2013, 06:56 PM   #6
PhoenixClass
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Re: tng birthright part 2

I also took Picard's response to be a recognition that he should not press Worf for details. As in "I understand what you have NOT said and I will let it go at that."

Also, I don't think the US Civil War analogy is appropriate. Worf did not resign and then fight against the Federation, which is what is happening in that analogy.
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Old November 30 2013, 09:29 PM   #7
Mojochi
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Re: tng birthright part 2

PhoenixClass wrote: View Post
I also took Picard's response to be a recognition that he should not press Worf for details. As in "I understand what you have NOT said and I will let it go at that."
^This. There's no way Picard could have known the whole truth, but he clearly knew things were more involved than Worf let on, given he showed up with survivor's children. So, yeah... he's not being truthful, but he's been withholding about cultural aspects before. The truth is, he's just never believed his crewmates could ever fully understand him, which I've always thought was bollocks. If you trust people with your life, then ultimately, your life is an open book.

As to the other separate issues in Worf's career, he's certainly been the one officer there who's motivations were askew.

However, I see no issue with him resigning to join his homeworld civil war. It's very unlikely that it could be construed by anyone that the Federation is forcing influence by sending in ex-Starfleet to interfere, because Worf is one person, the only one joining the fight, & he's a Klingon, the only one in Starfleet. Under these extenuating circumstances, it's clear to everyone what's going on.

Plus, any other captain might have enforced a permanency to the resignation. It was Picard's personal decision, given Worf's conduct, that he'd be willing to welcome him back to active duty. It's actually Picard who is out on a limb there, very much like when he was Arbiter of Succession or Worf's Cha'Dlch, but it would be unlikely anyone would mount an official objection to it.

Killing Duras, on the other hand, clearly conduct unbecoming. There were special circumstances there too though, even ones outside cultural aspects. Again, Picard's call.

There is only one situation where Worf's conduct was difficult to accept, & that was his decision to refuse aid to the dying Romulan in The Enemy. I don't think Picard has been so disappointed or disapproving of Worf ever, & it actually surprises me that Worf would ever get a promotion from him, & it took until the 1st movie for him to get one
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Old December 1 2013, 12:09 AM   #8
JirinPanthosa
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Re: tng birthright part 2

Worf is still in Starfleet because he received special treatment from Picard on multiple occasions.

I think the killing of Duras is far more difficult to accept than The Enemy. Picard believes in individual freedoms even at the expense of the bigger picture. He could have ordered Worf to give blood and he would have, and he declined to give that order, because he believed in Worf's right to make that decision no matter how strongly he disagreed.

Picard's acceptance of the murder of Duras, as well as his allowance of Worf to rejoin Starfleet, was not about the resources he'd put into training him and was all about their personal relationship.

I've never seen evidence that in Starfleet people have to serve for a set term. Starfleet is portrayed as something people strive and work their whole lives to join, so their attitude is: Don't want to be in Starfleet? Well these billion other guys would love to take your place. So as long as the Captain approves the resignation, they can leave whenever they want. Just usually they wouldn't be allowed back. Except of course, in the Dominion War, when people would probably have not been allowed to resign.
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Old December 2 2013, 09:20 AM   #9
MikeS
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Re: tng birthright part 2

Couldn't Picard's "I understand" line be alot simpler than the interpretation here? Worf had been given hope that his dad was still alive and gone to find him. I always took the line to be Picard's way of acknowledging and empathising with Worf's renewed grief.
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Old December 2 2013, 12:20 PM   #10
Maxwell Everett
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Re: tng birthright part 2

pontypool wrote: View Post
In this episode, Worf withholds information about the kitimer survivors when questioned by Picard.
Picard said "i understand" and based on his body language I am unsure if he really did understand the truth of what Worf said, or just took his lie at face value.
I am curious to know what other peoples views are in this.
The script is pretty clear that Picard knows Worf means the opposite of what he says. Saying "No one survived Khitomer" is clearly not true and Picard must know that, because Worf himself is a survivor of Khitomer!

Good dialogue is all about subtext.
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Old December 3 2013, 09:06 PM   #11
pontypool
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Re: tng birthright part 2

R. Star wrote: View Post
Worf did the right thing. His Klingon morals and loyalty to his House and people conflicted with his duties as a Starfleet officer and thus he resigned. They accepted him back later, likely because he was an effective officer not to mention all the resources they expended in training him. As for the political troubles of Federation officers playing mercenary for the Klingons, I think that would be small change compared to Picard taking a fleet into Klingon space to blockade the Romulan border.
I always thought the romulans were sneaking in through federations space into klingon space and the blockade was on the federation border?
Even so, the federation and klingons are allies, so it shouldn't create a diplomatic incident if they are monitoring the klingon border.
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