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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old November 27 2013, 06:12 PM   #121
BillJ
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And as stated before: the Federation AGREED with Picard.
As someone whose seen the movie you know that simply isn't true. None of us know what became of the "review" done by the Federation Council.

None of us.
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Old November 27 2013, 06:33 PM   #122
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Insurrection is my favorite TNG film.
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Old November 27 2013, 07:08 PM   #123
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

The movie is lacking one key scene: Enterprise leaves the patch; Picard is getting emotionally eaten alive by the moral quandary; he contacts the Commander In Chief Of Starfleet or the Federation Council. Three lines, don't even need to see it: Picard comes out of his ready-room, and states that the Federation is aware of the situation, feels that it's a non-issue cause there's to much to gain from the rings to worry about a non indigenous population and they're to leave the region immediately. He orders Enterprise back into the patch and sneaks up on the S'ona and the movie carries on as normal.

BillJ wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post

And as stated before: the Federation AGREED with Picard.
As someone whose seen the movie you know that simply isn't true. None of us know what became of the "review" done by the Federation Council.

None of us.
Did the novels ever hint on what happened? Cause it'd be interesting if Picard made his report, Starfleet Command the Federation Council paid it lip service, and then went ahead, transplanted the Baku and stripped the planet--only to have the rings' energy be unusable afterwards.
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Old November 27 2013, 07:24 PM   #124
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

JarodRussell;8947984 In the middle of the film, Picard suggests that they should [snip wrote:
let the Son'a set up a colony on the planet to find a better solution.

Did nobody see the film from beginning to end? It's all spelled out within the film.
Problem with that is we did see the film, and it was immediately pointed out to Picard that his idea wouldn't work owing to the fact that it would take a decade of natural exposure to the radiation of the rings to save the Sona, a decade which they did not possess.

Another point is that the Son'a were supporting the Dominion ...
Never directly stated, the Sona were producing the white, but for whom?

And as stated before: the Federation AGREED with Picard.
No they didn't, the Federation Council announced a review. When Admiral Ball-breaker asked for a reconsideration of the Council order to relocate the Indians locate in Cardassian territory, the result after three days was "nothing has changed."

The Indian were allowed to stay only after asking the Cardassians if they could.

Probably because their ships needed to cross Federation territory to get to the Briar Patch (as said in the film, the Son'a didn't live in the Briar Patch).
And because the particle ring was itself Federation property, a natural resource that the Sona would need Federation permission to harvest.

The Federation had the ring planet, the Sona had the harvest technology.

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Old November 27 2013, 10:23 PM   #125
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
And I'm not sure "we saw it first" is a terribly strong basis for a legal claim. The Baku chose to hide themselves away from quadrant-spanning galactic civilization whose territory grew to include the planet they were living on. Not once in all that time did it occur to them to say "Uh, guys? Just to let you know, we've already claimed this planet. Don't call us, we won't call you." They were too busy being insufferable Luddites.
So, discovering the planet, establishing a permanent outpost on the planet, establishing a colony on the planet, and being able to defend the government of that colony well enough to exile troublemakers from the planet, don't convey any claim to the planet?

I mean, if the people who've been living on it for centuries and raised generations of their kind there doesn't establish a claim on the planet, then, what does? Surely not the Federation having close-up pictures of it taken from outside the nebula.
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Old November 28 2013, 02:10 AM   #126
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

We could go back and forth forever regarding what does and does not constitute a legal claim on the planet, but the thing is that this is NEVER up for debate in the movie. The movie treats the planet as Federation property.
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Old November 28 2013, 08:24 AM   #127
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
We could go back and forth forever regarding what does and does not constitute a legal claim on the planet, but the thing is that this is NEVER up for debate in the movie. The movie treats the planet as Federation property.
If it is Federation property then there's nothing wrong with the Admiral's plan and Picard is in the wrong for interfering with the safe removal of the colonists.
I can't believe I said wrong and Picard in the same sentence.
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Old November 28 2013, 09:46 AM   #128
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
If it is Federation property then there's nothing wrong with the Admiral's plan and Picard is in the wrong for interfering with the safe removal of the colonists.
Picard position seem to be that it was ethically wrong, not that it was legally wrong.

Picard was obviously enamored with the Baku lifestyle, his desire to preserve it was a big part of what was driving his thoughts and actions.

Picard never countered the Federation's possession of the planet or the region it occupied, nor did he contend that the particles once collected wouldn't help many billion within the Federation.

Those facts just didn't enter into his decision making process.

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Old November 28 2013, 05:37 PM   #129
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
If it is Federation property then there's nothing wrong with the Admiral's plan and Picard is in the wrong for interfering with the safe removal of the colonists.
Picard position seem to be that it was ethically wrong, not that it was legally wrong.

Picard was obviously enamored with the Baku lifestyle, his desire to preserve it was a big part of what was driving his thoughts and actions.

Picard never countered the Federation's possession of the planet or the region it occupied, nor did he contend that the particles once collected wouldn't help many billion within the Federation.

Those facts just didn't enter into his decision making process.

Data even brings up that the rings radiation could be affecting their judgement along with their bodies...but fuck it, saddle up, lock and load.

Insurrection isn't the worst movie or even the worst Trek movie around, but it is largely a non-story. The "good guys" are on the wrong side of the argument (needs of the many and all that), the Baku are just assholes, the heroes showing up actually make the situation worse. Not to mention the same story was done much better in Homeward, Progress, and Journey's End.

Edit: Bad thought, bad thought...

Insurrection = 24th remake of Omega Glory

  • Kirk = Picard
  • Tracey = Doughetry / Ruafo
  • Omega Healing Factor = Rings
  • Kohms = S'ona
  • Yangs = Baku
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Old November 29 2013, 03:15 AM   #130
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

I was thinking about this last night. I suppose if we wanted a 'get-out clause' for Picard's actions -- if we really want a get-out clause -- then we might theorize that Starfleet is acting autonomously of the Federation in this case (Starfleet being merely the military arm of the UFP, a sorta-kinda seperate entity). If this is true, then Riker running off to the Federation council to tattle about Dougherty's plan makes some kind of sense, because while certain higher-ups within Starfleet might have knowledge about the secret mission to harvest the planet, and maybe they even fully authorized it, they might still be keeping it a secret from the UFP itself, for fears that members of the council would shut them down.

The novels take the easy road, and just blames the whole thing on Section 31.
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Old November 29 2013, 04:09 AM   #131
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

^ Makes me wonder, exactly who did Riker communicate with? I mean who did he call?

Can a Commander in Starfleet simply call members of the Council directly, and have them simply run to the "phone" to speak to him?

Or would Riker have to weave his way through the bureaucracy for hours on end for each of the Council Members he wanted to talk to?


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Old November 29 2013, 04:19 AM   #132
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Another episode that does it better than Insurrection: Ensigns of Command


T'Girl wrote: View Post
^ Makes me wonder, exactly who did Riker communicate with? I mean who did he call?

Can a Commander in Starfleet simply call members of the Council directly, and have them simply run to the "phone" to speak to him?

Or would Riker have to weave his way through the bureaucracy for hours on end for each of the Council Members he wanted to talk to?


Secretary: Councilman, I have a urgent call for you.
Councilman: From?
Secretary: Commander Riker aboard...
Councilman: ...the Enterprise, I know. *sigh* At least it isn't Picard or that damn pet android of his. What's Riker whining about this week?
Secretary: He says there some primitive people on some backwater planet that Starfleet want to move to another backwater planet.
Councilman: Really? This shit again? What is that like the 10th or 12th time this year? Tell him I'm not in. In fact, change my com-code.

Edit: A year or so old, but basically a video version of this thread: Linkara and Nostalgia Critic tackle Star Trek Insurrection
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Old November 29 2013, 05:16 AM   #133
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Lance wrote: View Post
I was thinking about this last night. I suppose if we wanted a 'get-out clause' for Picard's actions -- if we really want a get-out clause -- then we might theorize that Starfleet is acting autonomously of the Federation in this case (Starfleet being merely the military arm of the UFP, a sorta-kinda seperate entity). If this is true, then Riker running off to the Federation council to tattle about Dougherty's plan makes some kind of sense, because while certain higher-ups within Starfleet might have knowledge about the secret mission to harvest the planet, and maybe they even fully authorized it, they might still be keeping it a secret from the UFP itself, for fears that members of the council would shut them down.

The novels take the easy road, and just blames the whole thing on Section 31.
That would assume Dougerty is still lying and his orders didn't come from, as he claimed, the council.
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Old November 29 2013, 05:27 AM   #134
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

The fact that Doughtery wasn't worried about Picard filing a report/objection leads me to believe that he had an official sanction from the Council.
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Old November 29 2013, 01:45 PM   #135
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Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
The fact that Doughtery wasn't worried about Picard filing a report/objection leads me to believe that he had an official sanction from the Council.
This.

Plus, I hate Section 31. It has become the bogey man for every Federation action that doesn't line up with its supposed values.
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