RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,879
Posts: 5,222,177
Members: 24,231
Currently online: 719
Newest member: Rhonson

TrekToday headlines

Takei To Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Yelchin In New Comedy
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

U.S. Rights For Pegg Comedy Secured
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Shatner: Aging and Work
By: T'Bonz on Apr 23

Kurtzman And Orci Go Solo
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Star Trek #32 Preview
By: T'Bonz on Apr 22

Voyager Bridge Via The Oculus Rift
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Miles Away Glyph Award Nominations
By: T'Bonz on Apr 21

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 25 2013, 03:12 AM   #91
The Old Mixer
Vice Admiral
 
The Old Mixer's Avatar
 
Location: Connecticut
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

^But studios do take the money into account, which is why no more were made. It wasn't an aesthetic decision, it was a financial one.

On the topic in general...well, I just rewatched Insurrection for the first time in ages. It's more or less as I remember it...it wasn't a bad film in its own right...I don't have as many problems with the story as some do...but the fundamental problem is that it just doesn't feel like a story that was worthy squandering a movie in the TNG series on.
__________________
50 years ago on the week of April 4: With a little help from their latest #1 single, the Beatles occupy the top five spots on the Billboard Hot 100 chart--a feat yet to be matched.
The Old Mixer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 03:50 AM   #92
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

sonak wrote: View Post
Yeah, someone here(T'Girl, maybe?) in these threads usually brings up the idea of a hilarious comedy scene where we see that Riker gets a message to the Council, and they're like "yeah? So what? We already know what's going on because WE GAVE THE ORDERS, STUPID!")
I really do think that the result of the Federation Council review would have been basically "nothing has changed."

The particles still have fantastic medical properties.
The particle are still orbiting a Federation planet.
The Sona built one collector, they can built another.
The population of the world is low in number and can be easily moved.

When it comes right down to it, from the Federation's perspective the fact that the Sona and the Baku are the same people is irrelevant to the situation.

Ultimately the Council would confirm their original orders, move the Baku, and harvest the particles.

Given that the Baku now knew that the Federation intends to move them, the ridiculous holoship could be dropped from the plan.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 05:04 AM   #93
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

How can it be a "Federation planet" if the people inhabiting it haven't consented to join? Or are they annexing it because they can? Doesn't that violate like 20,000 laws?
__________________
* * *
“The absence of limitations is the enemy of art.”
― Orson Welles
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 06:07 AM   #94
Lance
Fleet Captain
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Maurice wrote: View Post
How can it be a "Federation planet" if the people inhabiting it haven't consented to join? Or are they annexing it because they can? Doesn't that violate like 20,000 laws?
For the exact same reason that Dorvan V could suddenly belong to the Cardassians, despite the (non-native) population of the planet refusing to acknowledge that fact. Picard had no qualms about moving them on to somewhere else though.

The Brier Patch is presumably within established Federation boundries, and the Bak'u are *not* native to the planet. If they had've been, then Picard's actions would have been justified. But they're not. So they aren't. The Federation is in the clear.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 25 2013, 07:23 PM   #95
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Remember, at no point did either the Baku or the Sona claim the planet.

If the Baku had a legitimate claim to the plaent, then Picard as their vocal advocate would have repeatedly brought that up shoved the fact under the admiral nose, told Riker to remind the Council of the fact, but he never did.

IF the Sona (as former-Baku) had a legitimate claim to the planet, they never would have involved the Federation Council in the harvesting of the particles. The simply would have relocated the Baku themselves and harvested the particles.

The way I see it, the Sona contacted the Federation Council because the Sona recognized the Federation's territorial hold on the Brier Patch and everything within it.

Picard: "A Planet In Federation Space."

Not a planet surrounded by the Federation, but excluded from Fedeation.
Not a hole in the Federation's territorial Swiss cheese.
Not a bubble of sovereign exclusion.

Even Picard acknowledged that fact.

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 07:49 PM   #96
sonak
Vice Admiral
 
Location: in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Maurice wrote: View Post
How can it be a "Federation planet" if the people inhabiting it haven't consented to join? Or are they annexing it because they can? Doesn't that violate like 20,000 laws?

if you deny the Federation's claim to it, then it makes no sense for the Son'a to come to them. Once Picard finds out that the Son'a are FROM the planet, his reaction SHOULD have been "oops! That means that it's your right to remove the Baku. Sorry about this whole mess, let's pack our bags, we can discuss a deal for the particles later."



But then he couldn't have gotten into Anij's pants, so....
__________________
"why oh why didn't I take the blue pill?"
sonak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 08:51 PM   #97
Blip
Fleet Captain
 
Blip's Avatar
 
Location: Deck 13, section 21-Alpha
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

I saw the thread title, and all that came to mind was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc



__________________
For those determined to contort yourselves into knots so as to include every minor production flub as gospel, and shoehorn it into "cannnonnnnn": STOP. I don't have all day to waste on here; I quite like enjoying real life thankyouverymuch.
Blip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 26 2013, 11:31 PM   #98
AgentCoop
Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Insurrection is decent enough, but for me it's main failing is that it lacks the courage to deal with it's own moral ambiguity. You need look no further than this very thread to see that opinion is divided on whether Picard was on the right side, but the movie never even so much as acknowledges the possibility that he might be doing the wrong thing.

Nemesis suffers from a dull villain. I do like the Data stuff, though. But I'm a sucker for anything to do with Data.
__________________
Two penguins were walking across an iceberg.
One penguin turned to the second penguin and said
"You look like you're wearing a tuxedo."
And the second penguin said "Maybe I am..."
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 12:47 AM   #99
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
Insurrection is decent enough, but for me it's main failing is that it lacks the courage to deal with it's own moral ambiguity. You need look no further than this very thread to see that opinion is divided on whether Picard was on the right side, but the movie never even so much as acknowledges the possibility that he might be doing the wrong thing.
Why should it? Picard is on the pro side, Dougherty is on the con side. The discussion happens outside the film.

Kirk might have been doing the wrong thing giving up his career to get Spock's dead body in TSFS, and there is no such discussion in the film either. None of his crew disagree with him. They just do what they think is right and move on. They were only lucky to find Spock alive and well.



It seems to me that people either want black and white, and they want the white to be their opinion, so it's easy to agree with the hero, or they want the alternative spoon fed, so they can say "at least the movie acknowleged that my own opinion could be right".


I know a lot of people who hate Avatar because they are killing of humans/marines in order to save "some natives". That's their opinion. Which is why they don't like the film. I see similar things here. People don't agree with Picard's opinion. Which is why the film sucks for them.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 01:25 AM   #100
AgentCoop
Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
AgentCoop wrote: View Post
Insurrection is decent enough, but for me it's main failing is that it lacks the courage to deal with it's own moral ambiguity. You need look no further than this very thread to see that opinion is divided on whether Picard was on the right side, but the movie never even so much as acknowledges the possibility that he might be doing the wrong thing.
Why should it? Picard is on the pro side, Dougherty is on the con side. The discussion happens outside the film.

Kirk might have been doing the wrong thing giving up his career to get Spock's dead body in TSFS, and there is no such discussion in the film either. None of his crew disagree with him. They just do what they think is right and move on. They were only lucky to find Spock alive and well.



It seems to me that people either want black and white, and they want the white to be their opinion, so it's easy to agree with the hero, or they want the alternative spoon fed, so they can say "at least the movie acknowleged that my own opinion could be right".


I know a lot of people who hate Avatar because they are killing of humans/marines in order to save "some natives". That's their opinion. Which is why they don't like the film. I see similar things here. People don't agree with Picard's opinion. Which is why the film sucks for them.
Well, I didn't like Avatar because I thought it was just a bad film, albeit the best-looking bad film I ever saw. But I digress.

Obviously, I disagree with your assessment. Yes, I am one of those people who thinks Picard was on the wrong side, but that has very little to do with why I have problems with the film. I don't need to agree with Picard to enjoy the movie. But I do think the very premise of the film (Picard and crew vs. Starfleet) is one that almost requires that the lines between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" be drawn with a little more ambiguity to make it truly effective. I'm not talking about some big on-screen debate, either. A line or two of dialogue from someone like Riker or Crusher suggesting that maybe they could see where the Federation is coming from would have helped enormously. Picard is going against Starfleet. Against the Federation. That's a BIG DEAL. Making him defend his position would not be amiss.
__________________
Two penguins were walking across an iceberg.
One penguin turned to the second penguin and said
"You look like you're wearing a tuxedo."
And the second penguin said "Maybe I am..."
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 01:52 AM   #101
JirinPanthosa
Commodore
 
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Frankly they're both just mediocre.

There are really some people who take the humans' side in Avatar just because they...are humans? Forget that it's one group of people invading and murdering another group of people just to steal their natural resources?

Wow. I can't believe there are that many people who would take one side unconditionally no matter how atrocious their crimes are. I suppose that's why we invade so many countries.

Last edited by JirinPanthosa; November 27 2013 at 02:11 AM.
JirinPanthosa is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 02:22 AM   #102
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

Well, as said earlier, Picard is only acting against Dougherty, Picard is absolutely certain that the Federation is on his side. As Ruafo states it, if the Federation got to know about the relocation, they would be in trouble. Which is why Dougherty agrees with the attack on the Enterprise.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 02:45 AM   #103
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Well, as said earlier, Picard is only acting against Dougherty, Picard is absolutely certain that the Federation is on his side. As Ruafo states it, if the Federation got to know about the relocation, they would be in trouble. Which is why Dougherty agrees with the attack on the Enterprise.
The only trouble he was worried about was the risk that Picard might sway political and public opinion against them.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 03:18 AM   #104
Lance
Fleet Captain
 
Lance's Avatar
 
Location: The Enterprise's Restroom
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I am one of those people who thinks Picard was on the wrong side, but that has very little to do with why I have problems with the film. I don't need to agree with Picard to enjoy the movie. But I do think the very premise of the film (Picard and crew vs. Starfleet) is one that almost requires that the lines between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" be drawn with a little more ambiguity to make it truly effective. I'm not talking about some big on-screen debate, either. A line or two of dialogue from someone like Riker or Crusher suggesting that maybe they could see where the Federation is coming from would have helped enormously. Picard is going against Starfleet. Against the Federation. That's a BIG DEAL. Making him defend his position would not be amiss.
Agree. The weakest point of the movie is that damn scene where the command crew all unequivocally pledge their support for Picard's crusade. It weakens the lot of them that they all seem to enraptured by the planet that they're willing to put aside their professionalism to 'chase the dream'. I understand that the point of it was supposed to be to underline how much of a 'family' the TNG crew are, but to me the problem is that Picard's point of view is so stupidly out of sync with reality that it's fundamentally obvious there should be some kind of debate about whether it's the right thing to do or not. I'd like to think that if it had been a TNG television episode then that debate might have happened.

Heck, even First Contact had the chutzpah to give us someone willing to stand up to Picard (both Lily and Worf, actually), so that Picard could verbally justify his position to the audience.
Lance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 27 2013, 03:25 AM   #105
AgentCoop
Captain
 
AgentCoop's Avatar
 
Location: Chillin' in the Black Lodge since June 10th, 1991
View AgentCoop's Twitter Profile
Re: LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Well, as said earlier, Picard is only acting against Dougherty, Picard is absolutely certain that the Federation is on his side. As Ruafo states it, if the Federation got to know about the relocation, they would be in trouble. Which is why Dougherty agrees with the attack on the Enterprise.
This is one of the problems. The film can't seem to decide if the Federation would be on Picard's side or not. I agree that much of what's onscreen supports the idea that the Federation Council would side with Picard, but unfortunately that's problematic for a whole other reason, namely the fact that the premise of the movie is -as the title suggests- insurrection. Where's the insurrection if the Council is on Picard's side? Is it Dougherty? If you ask me, one guy does not an insurrection make. Why have a scene where he dramatically removes his comm badge -clearly meant to symbolize his break with Starfleet- if all he's really doing is policing the Federation against one rogue admiral? It goes back to my original comment, the film is afraid of it's own premise.

There's a big disconnect between what the movie wants to be and what it actually is. It wants to be one of those great, challenging "Big Idea" episodes of Trek. Like "I, Borg", "In The Pale Moonlight" or "Tuvix". It wants to present the audience with a situation where there are no easy answers and you have to settle for the lesser of two evils in the absence of a clear-cut good. But it never stops trying to have it both ways. Ultimately, they were too afraid that the audience might stop liking Picard to ever let hin be anything but the designated hero.
__________________
Two penguins were walking across an iceberg.
One penguin turned to the second penguin and said
"You look like you're wearing a tuxedo."
And the second penguin said "Maybe I am..."
AgentCoop is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:16 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.