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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old January 16 2014, 11:24 PM   #1
BlueMetroid
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Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!
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Old January 17 2014, 12:16 AM   #2
drt
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

As far as I know, there's never been an "official" declaration on the matter. Orci does oversee the comics in some capacity (albeit perhaps more to ennsure they don't contradict something planned for a future movie), so perhaps he's OK with the idea in general if that's the opinion of the IDW staff.

With regard to it already being an alternate universe, I've seen a number of "fanon" thoughts on the matter, the most popular seems to be that the timeline diverged from the Enteterprise-E's trip to the past in First Contact and that Enterprise and the new movies are actually taking place in that timeline.
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Old January 17 2014, 12:28 AM   #3
Bry_Sinclair
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

I like that idea. It allows for Romulus to still exist, as well as prevent a single supernova from destroying the universe, retcons Red Matter (whatever it was--why not just make it trilithium instead, it has the power to break down all nuclear fusion in a star) and the hideous Jellyfish-type ship.
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Old January 17 2014, 12:33 AM   #4
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Word of God from Orci dating back to a Trekmovie.com Q+A has always been that the timelines diverged in 2233, that they were identical before that. ST'09 supports this with Spock's line that the timeline disruption "Beginning with the attack on the USS Kelvin...". Into Darkness seems to confirm this, by bending over backwards to explain how and why Khan was revived earlier than "Space Seed" (all stemming from the Narada's arrival and the destruction of Vulcan), and with Admiral Marcus' models, which include the Aries IV, Phoenix, Ringship Enterprise, NX-Alpha and Enterprise NX-01, all of which are part of the pre-2233 shared past. There was even a scene, cut from the final version of the movie, explaining why Carol has a British accent now. If the timelines were always separate, there would be no need for any of that at all and they'd never have bothered.

The videogame and comics seem to treat nuTrek as an all-out reboot (extra-galactic Gorn etc), but the movies themselves will always take precedence over tie-ins.

FWIW, the novel writers over in Trek Lit have confirmed a few times that in 2387 (their "present" is 2385) Romulus is burning and Spock is falling into a black hole with Nero. There have already been several little nuTrek references in the books, to things that would be common to both timelines (and the whole branching timeline concept was detailed in DTI: Watching the Clock)
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Old January 17 2014, 01:04 AM   #5
Therin of Andor
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

BlueMetroid wrote: View Post
he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.
Well, yes it was, because the timeline was changed when Nero appeared, many years earlier, and caused the death of Kirk's father.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The videogame and comics seem to treat nuTrek as an all-out reboot (extra-galactic Gorn etc)
How do you know that TOS's Gorn didn't also originate from another galaxy?
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Old January 17 2014, 01:47 AM   #6
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.
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Old January 17 2014, 01:57 AM   #7
Set Harth
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

-Brett- wrote:
Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.
Nothing was erased from continuity.

BlueMetroid wrote: View Post
I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.
What gave you that impression? I found him saying this in 2012:
It’s the “butterfly flaps its wings, causes a hurricane” analogy. We started off with small deviations, but as we proceed, we’re getting further and further from the original timeline. Issues #9 and #10, “The Return of the Archons,” is an example of how the new timeline diverges significantly from the original story. The last movie was the butterfly. This series builds up to the hurricane that is the next movie… the stories will depart further and further from the original series. We will use a few original series concepts as jumping off points, but the new timeline is moving in a radically different direction.
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Old January 17 2014, 02:28 AM   #8
C.E. Evans
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

I think it truly depends on whatever floats your boat--it could go either way. The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.
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Old January 17 2014, 02:47 AM   #9
darkshadow0001
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

BlueMetroid wrote: View Post
I've been reading some comments from Mike Johnson (of Star Trek Ongoing from IDW), and he seems to be under the impression that the Abramsverse was already an alternate universe before Spock Prime arrived on the scene.

Has anyone else heard this? Do Orci and Abrams share the same view? I'd love thoughts on the matter!
I think it had to be. Because it wasn't the same as TOS...
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Old January 17 2014, 03:14 AM   #10
Set Harth
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

darkshadow0001 wrote: View Post
Because it wasn't the same as TOS...
Actually, it was, until Nero's arrival. One of the ways in which this is apparent is that they didn't even update the Eugenics Wars timeframe to reflect actual historical reality - something they easily could have done if they felt that they were working with an originally distinct timeline in the first place.

C. E. Evans wrote:
The only problem will be when you occur other people who insist on it being just one way.
The intention of the writers is what it is. Allowing them to define what is going on in the film they wrote is surely preferable to allowing disgruntled fans to rewrite the plot.
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Old January 17 2014, 04:40 AM   #11
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

It had to be divergent before that. Just look at the differences between the two Khan's.
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Old January 17 2014, 04:44 AM   #12
Set Harth
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

That's due to Marcus/Section 31. In other words the changes happened after the timeline divergence.
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Old January 17 2014, 04:56 AM   #13
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

edit: deleted. I don't want to get in a time-travel argument. They make my head hurt.

Last edited by Dale Sams; January 17 2014 at 05:10 AM.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:05 AM   #14
-Brett-
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
-Brett- wrote:
Over the last four years I've gotten a little sick of Enterprise fans thinking that their show was the only one not erased from continuity. Especially considering that their shows mediocrity was what necessitated the reboot to begin with.

So yeah, any interpretation that erases Enterprise is fine with me. If it can somehow be more erased than TOS, TNG, and DS9, that would be even better.
Nothing was erased from continuity.
Every time travel episode and movie seems to imply otherwise.
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Old January 17 2014, 05:13 AM   #15
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Re: Was the Abramsverse already an alternate universe?

Set Harth wrote: View Post
That's due to Marcus/Section 31. In other words the changes happened after the timeline divergence.
Not all of them. The changes in "Return of the Archons" cannot be accounted for by Nero's interference alone, since Landru's control of the population is heavily implied to be part of a Section 31 black op that began half a century before Narada arrived. There's also the fact that Klingon ships appear to have cloaking devices in this timeline, which is unlikely to be a consequence of Nero's arrival and is far more likely to be due to the Romulans' using them in the 22nd century and/or the Klingons acquiring the technology from the Xyrillians or the Suliban. And if you want to be REALLY nitpicky, there's the fact of the Klingons' physical appearance: Kor looks NOTHING like his TOS appearance, nor do Klingon uniforms bear even the slightest resemblance to their TOS counterparts. This is also true of the Romulans whose uniforms and starships are both radically different from their TOS appearance; indeed, when we see them in The Khitomer Conflict they're using what appear to be precursors of the D'Deridex warbirds, nothing at all that could ever be mistaken for "Klingon design" as we saw in TOS.

The thing is, we've already accepted that Spock and Nero arrived in a parallel universe. The only thing up for debate is whether it's parallel because of their arrival or whether they arrived in a universe that was ALREADY running parallel to the prime one except for some rather subtle differences. Even in the films, there's some circumstantial evidence for the latter, especially when one accepts that the Abramsverse DOES NOT take for granted the accuracy of any one character's barely-informed suppositions.
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