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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old November 13 2013, 11:24 PM   #31
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Mark_Nguyen wrote: View Post
...So they rip off ships from other franchises! Crap, that's too similar to be a coincidence!

Mark
Oh, I don't want to bag on B5. I loved all the scenes with Klaus Nomi.
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Old November 13 2013, 11:57 PM   #32
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

I'm also convinced this is only coincidence:



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Old November 14 2013, 04:12 AM   #33
GameOn
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
and are positioned near a hole in space (wormhole, jump gate)
Which is a nonsensical comparison. The Bajoran Wormhole is a unique, mysterious alien construct connecting only two points in space, whereas a jump gate is one of hundreds of constructed artifacts that allow entry into hyperspace and access to any other jump gate, making them no more exotic in context than freeway on-ramps. Anyone who thinks they're equivalent isn't paying attention.
Jump gates are also B5's version of faster than light travel making them analogous to warp drive.
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Old November 14 2013, 06:08 AM   #34
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

^Aren't they more like Buck Roger's stargates?
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Old November 14 2013, 09:48 AM   #35
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The only reason anyone thought DS9 and B5 were similar is because nobody else had ever really done a space-station show before.
Well, there's that, there's the fact that both stations have a single digit number at the end of their names ...
At least with B5 we found out (in one case in great detail) what happen to Babylon One through Four. I can't remember any mention of Deep Space One through Eight.

Why did Starfleet rename it "Deep Space Nine?"

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Old November 14 2013, 10:49 AM   #36
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
The only reason anyone thought DS9 and B5 were similar is because nobody else had ever really done a space-station show before.
Well, there's that, there's the fact that both stations have a single digit number at the end of their names ...
At least with B5 we found out (in one case in great detail) what happen to Babylon One through Four. I can't remember any mention of Deep Space One through Eight.

Why did Starfleet rename it "Deep Space Nine?"

Deep Space 3 was the base the USS Hera, Geordi's mom's ship left before it was lost.

Deep Space 4 had computer records of the Hansens before they left for Borg Space

Deep Space 5 was a Federation base that the Cardassians were spying on in Parallels.

Deep Space 7 was cited as the destination of a civilian ship in Inheritance.

Before I take credit, memory alpha's a great tool, though I did remember the DS5 one off hand.
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Old November 14 2013, 10:50 AM   #37
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
At least with B5 we found out (in one case in great detail) what happen to Babylon One through Four. I can't remember any mention of Deep Space One through Eight.

Why did Starfleet rename it "Deep Space Nine?"

I cannot answer that question but I seem to remember a reference to a "Deep Space Five" in a TNG episode.
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Old November 14 2013, 01:53 PM   #38
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why did Starfleet rename it "Deep Space Nine?"

Perhaps a better question is: why didn't the Bajorans rename it?
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Old November 14 2013, 02:51 PM   #39
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
^Aren't they more like Buck Roger's stargates?
Yes, and like various earlier "jump point" or "gate" drives that had been portrayed in science fiction over the decades. There is virtually nothing that has ever existed in science-fiction film or television that wasn't around in prose SF at least a decade earlier, usually two or three decades earlier.


T'Girl wrote: View Post
Why did Starfleet rename it "Deep Space Nine?"
The "Deep Space" designation seemed to be for starbase-type facilities located beyond the Federation's borders. The former Terok Nor was evidently the ninth such station to be established since the usage was inaugurated. It seems to be a successor to the 23rd-century usage which gave us "Deep Space Station K-7" along the Klingon border.
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Old November 14 2013, 04:08 PM   #40
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

R. Star wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Well, there's that, there's the fact that both stations have a single digit number at the end of their names ...
At least with B5 we found out (in one case in great detail) what happen to Babylon One through Four. I can't remember any mention of Deep Space One through Eight.

Why did Starfleet rename it "Deep Space Nine?"

Deep Space 3 was the base the USS Hera, Geordi's mom's ship left before it was lost.

Deep Space 4 had computer records of the Hansens before they left for Borg Space

Deep Space 5 was a Federation base that the Cardassians were spying on in Parallels.

Deep Space 7 was cited as the destination of a civilian ship in Inheritance.

Before I take credit, memory alpha's a great tool, though I did remember the DS5 one off hand.
Don't forget that Deep Space 1 and 2 were sabotaged during construction, and Deep Space 8 disappeared 24 hours after going online...
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Old November 14 2013, 04:16 PM   #41
Bad Thoughts
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Christopher wrote: View Post
There is virtually nothing that has ever existed in science-fiction film or television that wasn't around in prose SF at least a decade earlier, usually two or three decades earlier.
Definitely! Neither show was "original" when their objective elements--things like methods of faster than light travel, shapeshifters, space stations, etc.--are taken into consideration. If anything, the similarities are interesting only from the perspective that Deep Space Nine stole Babylon 5's thunder: that B5 had a claim on the sci-fi tv audience of the mid-90s, but Trek edged it out. I'm sure Straczynski was also annoyed that he had to share the resources of the entertainment industry with DS9: the number of people in TV who worked on sci-fi was quite small (although much of that reflected the success of TNG).

Moreover, I don't think that the two shows competed against each other as much as is suggested. I moved around a lot in the 90s, and everywhere B5 followed DS9. Back to back, I was willing to sit down for an extra hour. If anything problematized B5's success, it was the explosion of syndicated TV and the formations of both CW (which along with B5, was Warner) and UPN, which ate up good time slots. DS9 was not immune to the same problem, though.

Regardless, genre shows tend to converge toward one another. On the one hand, they work through the same ideas and mimic one another in their competition with one another (keeping up with the Joneses, y'know).
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Old November 14 2013, 04:44 PM   #42
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Don't forget that Deep Space 1 and 2 were sabotaged during construction, and Deep Space 8 disappeared 24 hours after going online...
Wow really?
In what episode was that?
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Old November 14 2013, 05:31 PM   #43
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Bad Thoughts wrote: View Post
If anything, the similarities are interesting only from the perspective that Deep Space Nine stole Babylon 5's thunder: that B5 had a claim on the sci-fi tv audience of the mid-90s, but Trek edged it out. I'm sure Straczynski was also annoyed that he had to share the resources of the entertainment industry with DS9: the number of people in TV who worked on sci-fi was quite small (although much of that reflected the success of TNG).
I'd say it's TNG that had the biggest claim on the SFTV audience. B5 was trying to compete with Trek's existing dominance by doing something different and fresh. But DS9 was trying to establish its own identity as more than just an appendage of TNG, so it was also trying to do something different and fresh. Since they were both reacting to TNG, it's no surprise they went in similar directions in some respects (like the obvious one of using a space station instead of a starship).


Regardless, genre shows tend to converge toward one another. On the one hand, they work through the same ideas and mimic one another in their competition with one another (keeping up with the Joneses, y'know).
Not just the same genre, but the same era, influenced by the same antecedents and cultural zeitgeist. Even without direct mimicry, there will be resonances because of how their common environment shapes them.
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Old November 14 2013, 06:03 PM   #44
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

USS Firefly wrote: View Post
Don't forget that Deep Space 1 and 2 were sabotaged during construction, and Deep Space 8 disappeared 24 hours after going online...
Wow really?
In what episode was that?
"Deep Space Squared", of course.
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Old June 19 2014, 05:50 AM   #45
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Re: Was there a seven year plan?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
I liked DS9, but I don't think it could be more crystal clear that there wasn't any kind of long-term planning.

R. Star wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
The DS9 master plan was as follows:

Yeah... I guess TOS copied every other sci-fi series too because it was about a ship in space. Nevermind small details like DS9 airing before B5... by over a year if you take away that one shot pilot.
There are a lot of similarities beyond the superficial between DS9 and B5, but I think that has to do simply with beginning with similar premises and coincidence than with conspiracies.
However, one has to also consider the fact that Babylon 5 was pitched to Paramount at some point between 1987 and 1989, and copies of the series format left on-site; and that Berman and Piller were handed material to work from that was supposedly "internally generated."

(Paramount told Straczynski they'd never set a TV series on a space station, since it would be "too static," not going anywhere. Paramount also went into complete panic-mode in spring of '92, when Warner Bros. decided to go with B5, and busted their collective tails trying to get a space-station series on the air before Warner Bros., and even had reps out in the field telling people that B5 was a "rip-off" of DS9.)

The long and short of it is that the Paramount DS9 folks had about ten years of Straczynski's thinking to start up with (either directly or indirectly), and by the time Piller and Berman, realizing what they'd been stuck with, finished making major changes in their series to avoid too many detail-matches (and Straczynski eliminated several of his contributory, but not critical, plot elements, which had just accidentally shown up as part of the DS9 universe)....

....by that time, DS9 had been on the air long enough to establish a viewership, and something resembling a format, leading to many people unknowingly accusing Babylon 5 of being the "rip-off" of Deep Space Nine.


Lindley wrote: View Post
I never really cared about the rivalry, although I will say that some of the parallels are just weird. As in, similar enough that you have to doubt coincidence, but with no clear reason why that in particular would be copied. Dukat/Dukhat, for instance.
In this case, though, "Dukhat" (the slain Minbari leader, whose death touches off the war between humanity and that species) is specifically named with that spelling in JMS's earliest notes dating back to 1986.
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