RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,717
Posts: 5,214,578
Members: 24,211
Currently online: 857
Newest member: dmhp32


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old November 13 2013, 01:42 AM   #31
Venardhi
Vice Admiral
 
Venardhi's Avatar
 
Location: Constant transit
Send a message via AIM to Venardhi Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Venardhi
Re: Na'vi anatomy

Things did happen differently, but those events are still dependent on the same rules that have driven life on earth. The fact that they have DNA at all for creating hybrids means it is very similar indeed and DNA may be due to some universal constant for life. The major differences appear to be in the environmental factors. The atmosphere is thicker for one (and due to this, the winds are more forceful), and the gravity lower for another. This seems to have encouraged some very tall and sturdy trees, which has in turn and in combination with the other factors encouraged arboreal and aerial/gliding life. Another factor seems to have rewarded very strong bio-luminescence in spite of it never actually being completely dark on the planet. This might be due to early life evolving in conditions where it was more necessary and later life forms adapted it for communication, warning off or confusing predators, etc. but whatever the cause it was useful for enough species for long enough that nearly every species shows some form of it. I'm sure there are plenty of other patterns that someone who has seen the movie more than twice will have picked up on and that the people making the film did quite intentionally.
__________________
"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.
Venardhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 01:50 AM   #32
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Arlington, VA
Re: Na'vi anatomy

They also involved in a world where you can plug your tail into a tree and download your memories. There's an interconnectivity on Pandora that makes me hesitant to say that one isn't likely to gain or lose something simply because that didn't happen on Earth.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 02:05 AM   #33
Venardhi
Vice Admiral
 
Venardhi's Avatar
 
Location: Constant transit
Send a message via AIM to Venardhi Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Venardhi
Re: Na'vi anatomy

That just means that it was never beneficial enough for any of the species we saw with them to lose their neural link organ, or that those who did were not successful long-term. Particularly if the neural link organ plays a part in mating, it would follow that it would remain long-term.
__________________
"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.
Venardhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 03:11 AM   #34
Reverend
Rear Admiral
 
Reverend's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Na'vi anatomy

Pandora is supposed to be a satellite of a gas giant is it not? Perhaps the bio-luminescence is an adaptation to extended periods of darkness that would occur when they move into eclipse?

Another piece of evidence that something more is going on with the Na'vi's evolution just occurred to me. It's so obvious I wonder why I didn't think of it sooner. That is to say the mere face that they were discovered raises some questions.

Think about it; even ignoring they they're bipedal, two eyed tetrapods on a planet of *mostly* four eyed hexapods AND overlooking the DNA compatibility thing. The mere fact that they were discovered in the closest neighbouring star to Sol AND are of comparable intelligence to humans seems very suspicious.

Sure, it's entirely circumstantial and statistically possible that two very similar, genetically compatible races could evolve simultaneously right next door to each other...but what are the odds?
Reverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 03:41 AM   #35
Venardhi
Vice Admiral
 
Venardhi's Avatar
 
Location: Constant transit
Send a message via AIM to Venardhi Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Venardhi
Re: Na'vi anatomy

Reverend wrote: View Post
Pandora is supposed to be a satellite of a gas giant is it not? Perhaps the bio-luminescence is an adaptation to extended periods of darkness that would occur when they move into eclipse?
The planet and the other moons give off/reflect enough light that it never seems to get much darker than earthly twilight, even deep in the jungle.
Another piece of evidence that something more is going on with the Na'vi's evolution just occurred to me. It's so obvious I wonder why I didn't think of it sooner. That is to say the mere face that they were discovered raises some questions.

Think about it; even ignoring they they're bipedal, two eyed tetrapods on a planet of *mostly* four eyed hexapods AND overlooking the DNA compatibility thing. The mere fact that they were discovered in the closest neighbouring star to Sol AND are of comparable intelligence to humans seems very suspicious.

Sure, it's entirely circumstantial and statistically possible that two very similar, genetically compatible races could evolve simultaneously right next door to each other...but what are the odds?
The odds don't matter once the result is known.

From what I gathered, the Na'vi themselves weren't any more genetically compatible than any of the other Pandoran life (that is to say, you couldn't breed a human and a Na'vi to create such a hybrid), but rather the similarity in form made adapting them to the human mind that needed to go inside more readily viable.

The fact that they are roughly human shaped and intelligent tool users you mostly have to chalk up to the needs of the story. It wouldn't have nearly the wide appeal that it does if the Na'vi looked or behaved in truly alien ways. That evolution has shaped humanity into this form shows that it is a plausible form for such life to take. That is enough.
__________________
"There is no reason why good cannot triumph as often as evil. The triumph of anything is a matter of organization. If there are such things as angels, I hope that they are organized along the lines of the Maffia." - Winston Niles Rumfoord.
Venardhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 04:57 AM   #36
Mister Fandango
Captain
 
Mister Fandango's Avatar
 
Re: Na'vi anatomy

Venardhi wrote: View Post
Not very, since it is a homologous organ adapted from one present on pretty much every animal it is related to, going back about half a billion years in the evolutionary tree.
And how exactly would you know this just by looking at them for a minute fraction of a two hour movie?

Avatar is like a documentary about an area of a planet maybe the size of Rhode Island (if even that). How many native species of Rhode Island have only two legs and two arms instead of four legs and a mostly vestigial tail? How many have arms at all? How many are tool-using? How many lack fur over most of their body? Yeah, didn't think you could come up with a big number there.

If roles were reversed, I'm sure Na'vi would be bitching about how illogical all those alien humans are when all the animals on the planet Earth are five-limbed creatures (cats, dogs, cows; nevermind that one of those limbs appear to be all but useless -- who the fuck did the research on those weird ass creatures?!?), winged two-legged no-armed creatures (birds), and/or multi-legged multi-eyed creatures (insects), with absolutely no other signs of two-legged two-armed tool-using furless humanoids to be found whatsoever. God forbid they got a look at any of the shit underwater just off the coast.

Hell, expand the area to the size of Europe. How many primates are native there again versus every other species? I can't seem to remember. Surely it's at least 50-50, and closer to 99.99-0.01. I mean, that's what you seem to expect -- sorry, demand -- from this stupid movie. So surely it must be true on Earth, too. Especially in Rhode Island or Europe.
__________________
WildStar
Mister Fandango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 01:33 PM   #37
Reverend
Rear Admiral
 
Reverend's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Na'vi anatomy

Venardhi wrote: View Post
The planet and the other moons give off/reflect enough light that it never seems to get much darker than earthly twilight, even deep in the jungle.
For a second there I wondered if the reflected light would be the result of the systems other star, but I don't have a clue how often a binary system would align so that Pandora is in eclipse when it's primary and both stars are all in direct alignment.
Can't be often enough to justify such an adaptation, especially not the plant life since you think any length of time in that situation would be like a mini-winter and the vegetation is more likely to die back than anything.

Perhaps int he case of the animal like it's more of a camouflage thing, since a dark silhouette against a glowing background would make an easy meal for any predator. Of course you still have to account for what the plants are luminous in the first place...Something to do with the insects maybe?

Venardhi wrote: View Post
The odds don't matter once the result is known.
And yet coupled with everything else it's highly suspicious.

From what I gathered, the Na'vi themselves weren't any more genetically compatible than any of the other Pandoran life (that is to say, you couldn't breed a human and a Na'vi to create such a hybrid), but rather the similarity in form made adapting them to the human mind that needed to go inside more readily viable.
First off, they specifically say that the avatar bodies have human DNA spliced into them. They didn't say the Na'vi bodies have been adjusted to be mechanically compatible with human neural patterns. Not just any DNA either, but the DNA of the person intended to link with it. The *only* person who can link with it. Hence Sully being the only one capable of filling his brother's shoes.

On top of all of that the Avatars' faces actually look like their human pilots, which if you think about it shouldn't work with a totally alien genome. Even if DNA is universal for carbon based life, the codes should be unique and totally incompatible.

The fact that they are roughly human shaped and intelligent tool users you mostly have to chalk up to the needs of the story. It wouldn't have nearly the wide appeal that it does if the Na'vi looked or behaved in truly alien ways. That evolution has shaped humanity into this form shows that it is a plausible form for such life to take. That is enough.
They're not just "roughly human shaped" they're almost anatomically identical. As I mentioned before, the shape of a creature doesn't just tell you what environment it's adapted to, it tells you the life history of it's ancestors. There were an innumerable number of decisions along our evolutionary path that resulting in the form we have. Change any one of them, and you'll end up with a different creature. It's all based on chance and timing, so the chances of another race following not only the same final shape, but the same journey to get there? Again, possible but very unlikely.

Ultimately, while you can dismiss any one thing as coincidence, all of these factors added together seems to indicated that *maybe* Gaia and Eywa have already met.
Reverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 03:15 PM   #38
YellowSubmarine
Commodore
 
YellowSubmarine's Avatar
 
Re: Na'vi anatomy

whatever, missed a word, disregard this
__________________
R.I.P. Admiral James T. Kirk (2233-2267, 1969, 2267, 1930, 2267-2268, 1968, 2268-2269, Serpeidon Middle Ages, 2269, 2237, 2269-2286, 1986, 2286-2293, 2371)

Last edited by YellowSubmarine; November 13 2013 at 03:33 PM.
YellowSubmarine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 05:09 PM   #39
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Na'vi anatomy

I'd rather say it's a writer's misunderstanding of genetics, and not a fully fleshed out story about some alien conspiracy that makes humans and Na'vi related.

It's just a movie.

Yes, they took a lot of efforts in the design of the flora and fauna Pandora, but only so much.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 13 2013, 05:23 PM   #40
Reverend
Rear Admiral
 
Reverend's Avatar
 
Location: UK
Re: Na'vi anatomy

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I'd rather say it's a writer's misunderstanding of genetics, and not a fully fleshed out story about some alien conspiracy that makes humans and Na'vi related.

It's just a movie.

Yes, they took a lot of efforts in the design of the flora and fauna Pandora, but only so much.
I never suggested there's any conspiracy, just that the (most likely unintentional) inconsistencies may give a clue as to where Cameron may take the sequels if they do as he's suggested, take place on other planets in that system.
Reverend is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:44 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.