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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 26 2014, 07:05 PM   #496
DonIago
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Seems you're biasing the situation by saying the Baku would be moved to a hovel. Any evidence for that assertion?
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Old March 26 2014, 07:08 PM   #497
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Nazi government wasn't democratically elected?
Well, all other parties were intimidated and banned their free press. It's an election in name only.
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Old March 26 2014, 07:10 PM   #498
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post

Really a home you'd lived in and owned for years you would be happy to give up and move to a hovel to the 'greater good'?
Do we have any evidence that the Ba'ku are being moved to a "hovel"?

It's four walls and a roof. I have had no sentimental attachment to the places I've lived.
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Old March 26 2014, 07:14 PM   #499
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I don't suppose you can provide an actual analogy, in the sense of a non-indigenous culture that was sitting on a -medical benefit-?

Regarding the Dominon War, the wormhole expedited the hostilities, but as the Dominion was aware of the Federation prior to that point, the hostilities would have ensued in any case.
Medical benefit? Why do we have any rules regarding experiments on humans? Why can't we just say "I'm searching for a cure for cancer, I will give people cancer for my experiment?" It's the same situation. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. It doesn't make it morally right.

We chose the date and start of the Dominion War. Exploration led to us engaging in that war. Was it a necessary evil? Yes. We still started the war. Still, that's missing the point that this is a potential after the Dominion War, that people don't want to explore anymore.
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Old March 26 2014, 07:14 PM   #500
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Nazi government wasn't democratically elected?
Is that news to you?

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Old March 26 2014, 08:17 PM   #501
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I would point to the particles possibly being a cure for things like Irumodic Syndrome (humans)
Which is the result of a genetic defect, I fail to see how reversing age and regenerating optic nerves means the particles can flat out rewrite DNA.

No to mention that the federation would consider that illegal, what with the whole ban on genetic engineering.

and Bendii Syndrome (Vulcans)
assuming that this isn't also the result of a genetic defect. We don't really know what causes Bendii Syndrome, so its a bit presumptuous to claim what might be able to cure it.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
In the real world, if a corporation or group of people were sitting on the cure for cancer and refusing to make it available, people would be foaming at the mouth and screaming for government intervention and rightly so.
This is why I believe that after a very brief "review" by the Federation Council , their original orders to collect the particles would be implemented. If not (and contingent on the matter becoming public) the Council representatives would likely be recalled and replaced by their respective home worlds and the new Council would have the particles collected.
And yet there is no evidence in any Star Trek production that the particles are being used by the federation, no looks any younger and people still die from stuff they're allegedly supposed to prevent death from.

Most importantly Picard and his crew haven't been court martialed and are still on the Enterprise except Worf who got an ambassadorial job to a major federation ally, in fact later Riker was getting his own command.

The other reason I doubt it is that the guys writing it who made Dougherty and the Son'a the bad guys WERE STILL RUNNING THE FRANCHISE.

So they are going to go back on what they wrote why exactly?

Because given past history fans complaining on the internet doesn't do crap.
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Old March 26 2014, 08:34 PM   #502
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

So they are going to go back on what they wrote why exactly?
Then why leave any ambiguity at all? They could have worded Riker's line much differently.
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Old March 26 2014, 10:09 PM   #503
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

So they are going to go back on what they wrote why exactly?
Then why leave any ambiguity at all? They could have worded Riker's line much differently.
So people can make such a fuss about it 16 years after the movie was released of course. Not even Matrix had such an impact on viewers.

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Old March 27 2014, 01:11 AM   #504
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I'm curious.

Was it ever shown that the effects of the "particles" was permanent, or did a person need to remain in proximity to the planet's rings to enjoy the benefits?

Was Geordi's restored eyesight permanent? I remember that he mentioned that even if it wasn't he'd still seen a sunrise/sunset, something he'd never seen before.

Was the slowed or reversed aging effect permanent, or did Deanna and Beverly's boobs start to sag again after leaving the planet? Did Worf continue to go through Klingon puberty, or did he revert to his actual chronological age after the "insurrection"?

I don't recall anyone stating that there were experiments performed in a controlled environment that would prove the benefits of collecting the "particles" and destroying the planet.

It seems to me that this was little more than the promise of a "fountain of youth" propagated and perpetrated by Ruafo and his posse. Dougherty might have had good intentions, but I don't think he did. The Federation Council might have issued the order to proceed, but if they did they were swayed by Dougherty's input.

Also, it occurs to me that 300 years of "squatting" is plenty of evidence that the Baku have a legitimate claim to this planet. Not like they just landed there last week and decided to stay a while. Like it or not, this was their home. If the Sona did not want to live a few miles away, or even use another part of the planet as a home base to return to and maintain the planet's effects, is their own short-sightedness.

The Baku were not intentionally withholding a "cure for cancer." I remember no stated evidence, other than what the Sona told the Feds, that any of the plan would work. What if they moved the Baku, collected the "particles", and it didn't work? Major fail, and a planet destroyed for no reason. Ruafo and company, with the help of Starfleet, would have committed planicide (if that wasn't a word before, it is now).

This is not what the Federation does. This is Revenge 101, plain and simple.
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Old March 27 2014, 01:47 AM   #505
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The movie is pretty short on details from all angles.

urbandefault wrote: View Post

This is not what the Federation does.
The Federation does pretty much whatever it wants when it wants to. That's been a staple of the shows from the beginning. From Kirk destroying planetary societies ran by computers to Picard defying Edo law to save Wesley Crusher to Sisko poisoning a planetary biosphere to catch a bad guy.
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Old March 27 2014, 03:19 AM   #506
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Seems you're biasing the situation by saying the Baku would be moved to a hovel. Any evidence for that assertion?
Maybe not a literal hovel but from a place where I had eternal youth and could live without the horror of the machine destroying my joy of the washing up (gasp) to one where I aged and died.
So equivalent to a figurative change from a palace to a hovel.
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Old March 27 2014, 04:26 AM   #507
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
It seems to me that this was little more than the promise of a "fountain of youth" propagated and perpetrated by Ruafo and his posse. Dougherty might have had good intentions, but I don't think he did. The Federation Council might have issued the order to proceed, but if they did they were swayed by Dougherty's input.
It never occurred to me until I read your post, but would this ring-radiation be in the same league as the original series' Venus drug in Mudd's Women? Kirk did say about that "Oh, it exists...illegally.".
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Old March 27 2014, 03:39 PM   #508
T'Girl
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Let them visit the planet.
People with diabetes should have to leave their homes, families and lives in order to move next to the facility that produces insulin?

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Old March 27 2014, 04:44 PM   #509
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Let them visit the planet.
People with diabetes should have to leave their homes, families and lives in order to move next to the facility that produces insulin?

If it means more affordable health care, I'd certainly consider it for myself. I could live off my writing income and still provide for my family if we didn't have to worry about health benefit costs.
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Old March 27 2014, 05:00 PM   #510
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
I'm curious.

Was it ever shown that the effects of the "particles" was permanent, or did a person need to remain in proximity to the planet's rings to enjoy the benefits?

Was Geordi's restored eyesight permanent? I remember that he mentioned that even if it wasn't he'd still seen a sunrise/sunset, something he'd never seen before.

Was the slowed or reversed aging effect permanent, or did Deanna and Beverly's boobs start to sag again after leaving the planet? Did Worf continue to go through Klingon puberty, or did he revert to his actual chronological age after the "insurrection"?

I don't recall anyone stating that there were experiments performed in a controlled environment that would prove the benefits of collecting the "particles" and destroying the planet.

It seems to me that this was little more than the promise of a "fountain of youth" propagated and perpetrated by Ruafo and his posse. Dougherty might have had good intentions, but I don't think he did. The Federation Council might have issued the order to proceed, but if they did they were swayed by Dougherty's input.

Also, it occurs to me that 300 years of "squatting" is plenty of evidence that the Baku have a legitimate claim to this planet. Not like they just landed there last week and decided to stay a while. Like it or not, this was their home. If the Sona did not want to live a few miles away, or even use another part of the planet as a home base to return to and maintain the planet's effects, is their own short-sightedness.

The Baku were not intentionally withholding a "cure for cancer." I remember no stated evidence, other than what the Sona told the Feds, that any of the plan would work. What if they moved the Baku, collected the "particles", and it didn't work? Major fail, and a planet destroyed for no reason. Ruafo and company, with the help of Starfleet, would have committed planicide (if that wasn't a word before, it is now).

This is not what the Federation does. This is Revenge 101, plain and simple.

this post is another in the line of "not accepting the premise of what is told on screen." If you're not going to accept the movie's own premise that the particles WILL HELP, that's your choice, but then it's kind of pointless to debate the pros and cons of removing the Baku for a benefit that you simply decide to pretend doesn't exist.
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