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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 26 2014, 01:46 PM   #481
HaventGotALife
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal.
That makes the assumption that the Baku wouldn't have the exact same access to the radiation from the particles as the rest of the Federation's population.

They admittedly would no longer have exclusive access.
"Lifespans would be doubled." This is not the same as being immortal.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine. I'm going to launch the injector." Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal.
That was Ruafo acting out of growing desperation, the medical treatments keeping him alive would no longer work. Prior to that the Sona were trying to avoid harming the Baku. Even after ordering the injector launched, Ruafo still acted to protect the Baku who were already off the planet.

RU'AFO: Separate the Starfleet personnel and secure them in the aft cargo hold.

GALLATIN: The shields in that section won't protect them against the thermolytic reaction.


BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
No, it doesn't. You are supposed to be shocked that the Federation would be willing to destroy a culture in order to advance their own selfish causes.
You mean the same Federation that tries to use the Prime Directive as a moral imperative to not help species facing extinction? The same Federation that sneaks around on other people's worlds in the name of "exploration"?


Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine.
This doesn't happen until Picard sticks his nose where it didn't belong and complicates the operation.
Poor Ru'afo. It's all Picard's fault! I can't believe why I didn't see that.

"You exiled us to die slowly!" Maybe he's trying to do the same thing to his parents! Parricide!

Oh, okay. So it's alright to be a murderer, as long as it's the Starfleet personnel so that the Federation "never knows what happens here." Killed Admiral Dougherty. But it's all Picard's fault.
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Old March 26 2014, 02:27 PM   #482
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

If the Baku are a unique culture because of the properties of the rings, that still means they just got luckier than everyone else in that they found the planet first.

Why exactly should the Baku be allowed to have exclusive access to the Cure for Cancer just because they were lucky enough to find it before anyone else did?

And did you really in a prior post mean to suggest that the Federation started the war with the Dominion?
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Old March 26 2014, 02:33 PM   #483
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
But it's all Picard's fault.
Was Picard suppose to be there? No. Was Picard blowing off another mission assigned to him by Starfleet Command to go there? Yes. Did Picard violate Dougherty's orders on more than one occasion? Yes.

Whether you like it or not, the decision to remove the Ba'ku was done by the Federation Council. Likely, a number of member worlds (if not all) had their say, one way or the other. The orders were issued. It isn't up to a lone starship captain to decide that the actions of his government don't line up with his personal moral code and then to override the actions of a democratically elected body.

So now we're all suppose to be for rule by Picard? Whenever an action of his government doesn't meet his personal moral standard he has the right to override his governments decision? Sounds like the road to Hell to me.

I do like how you ignored my criticism of your point about the Federation supposedly being this morally perfect society that always does the right thing.
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Old March 26 2014, 02:44 PM   #484
HaventGotALife
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
If the Baku are a unique culture because of the properties of the rings, that still means they just got luckier than everyone else in that they found the planet first.

Why exactly should the Baku be allowed to have exclusive access to the Cure for Cancer just because they were lucky enough to find it before anyone else did?
Why should the Indians have access to the property we need for the Transcontinental Railroad? Why should the Mormons have access to practice their religion freely just because the Protestants didn't like it? They should have access because the planet was unclaimed and no one else was there. Why should I have access to my house of 60 years in the family (true story) if they want to put some parkland where it sits?


DonIago wrote: View Post
And did you really in a prior post mean to suggest that the Federation started the war with the Dominion?
For the sake of typing and being redundant, I suggest reading this.
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Old March 26 2014, 03:01 PM   #485
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
But it's all Picard's fault.
Was Picard suppose to be there? No. Was Picard blowing off another mission assigned to him by Starfleet Command to go there? Yes. Did Picard violate Dougherty's orders on more than one occasion? Yes.

Whether you like it or not, the decision to remove the Ba'ku was done by the Federation Council. Likely, a number of member worlds (if not all) had their say, one way or the other. The orders were issued. It isn't up to a lone starship captain to decide that the actions of his government don't line up with his personal moral code and then to override the actions of a democratically elected body.

So now we're all suppose to be for rule by Picard? Whenever an action of his government doesn't meet his personal moral standard he has the right to override his governments decision? Sounds like the road to Hell to me.

I do like how you ignored my criticism of your point about the Federation supposedly being this morally perfect society that always does the right thing.
I would define that (the highlighted section) as the reason for the title of the movie. "Just following orders" has led to many atrocities, democratically elected (Abu Graib) or not (The Holocaust). He's protecting the Federation he holds dear. He wasn't killing people like Captain Maxwell in The Wounded. He was trying to prevent an atrocity. One, that as the Dougherty and Ru'afo discuss, is not open for public debate. They want to keep it that way. You point is fallacious.

And I didn't address your other point because it's not worth addressing. The Federation has a reason behind not allowing interference in other cultures. They would become gods to less advanced humanoids. They would do nothing but prevent atrocities with their Starships. It could drag them into unforeseen conflicts. It makes sense to have the Prime Directive. It doesn't make sense to destroy a culture (as we seek them out) for resources. That's a very 19th century attitude. And why all the cloak and dagger if they really thought this was the right thing to do?
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Old March 26 2014, 03:06 PM   #486
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
If the Baku are a unique culture because of the properties of the rings, that still means they just got luckier than everyone else in that they found the planet first.

Why exactly should the Baku be allowed to have exclusive access to the Cure for Cancer just because they were lucky enough to find it before anyone else did?
Why should the Indians have access to the property we need for the Transcontinental Railroad? Why should the Mormons have access to practice their religion freely just because the Protestants didn't like it? They should have access because the planet was unclaimed and no one else was there. Why should I have access to my house of 60 years in the family (true story) if they want to put some parkland where it sits?


DonIago wrote: View Post
And did you really in a prior post mean to suggest that the Federation started the war with the Dominion?
For the sake of typing and being redundant, I suggest reading this.

I don't suppose you can provide an actual analogy, in the sense of a non-indigenous culture that was sitting on a -medical benefit-?

Regarding the Dominon War, the wormhole expedited the hostilities, but as the Dominion was aware of the Federation prior to that point, the hostilities would have ensued in any case.
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Old March 26 2014, 03:10 PM   #487
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
I would define that (the highlighted section) as the reason for the title of the movie. "Just following orders" has led to many atrocities, democratically elected (Abu Graib) or not (The Holocaust). He's protecting the Federation he holds dear. He wasn't killing people like Captain Maxwell in The Wounded. He was trying to prevent an atrocity. One, that as the Dougherty and Ru'afo discuss, is not open for public debate. They want to keep it that way. You point is fallacious.
Some people need to quit trying to compare this to the Trail of Tears. These were six-hundred people who were being moved. In the real world, if a corporation or group of people were sitting on the cure for cancer and refusing to make it available, people would be foaming at the mouth and screaming for government intervention and rightly so.


And I didn't address your other point because it's not worth addressing. The Federation has a reason behind not allowing interference in other cultures. They would become gods to less advanced humanoids. They would do nothing but prevent atrocities with their Starships. It could drag them into unforeseen conflicts. It makes sense to have the Prime Directive. It doesn't make sense to destroy a culture (as we seek them out) for resources. That's a very 19th century attitude. And why all the cloak and dagger if they really thought this was the right thing to do?
So it's okay for the Federation to covertly violate a worlds borders in the name of exploration? What would make sense in your morally perfect Federation would be for there to be no exploration of worlds that aren't in a position to openly communicate with the Federation. That way they can have a say on who visits their world and what technology is brought to it.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:13 PM   #488
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
he continually makes that argument in these threads on INS, that the Federation "doesn't really need" the stuff from the rings.
Lets see

-Medical technology that has people living at least till about 140 maybe longer.
-Once having the technology to create planets and in one case resurrect the dead.
-Once having the ability to transfer someone's mind into an android body with the personality more or less intact.
-The fact that the only thing standing between them and probably curing every disease, extending life spans who knows how long, and getting psychic powers is the ban on genetic engineering
-The fact Picard probably still remembers how to make anti-time particles which pretty much do the same damned thing as the rings.
-The fact that the transporter de-aged people TWICE.
-Not to mention the vast collection of records of alien super science Starfleet likely has by that point.

So exactly how do the magic particles trump every other magic tech usually encountered in Star Trek?

Because they only thing I can think of is the mistaken belief that for some reason they would actually be able to keep these particles unlike every over status quo breaker introduced in Star Trek.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:23 PM   #489
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
So exactly how do the magic particles trump every other magic tech usually encountered in Star Trek?
I would point to the particles possibly being a cure for things like Irumodic Syndrome (humans) and Bendii Syndrome (Vulcans) neither of which have cures. Even in the mid-24th century. There is probably a long list of ailments that 24th century science has yet to conquer.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:29 PM   #490
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal.
That makes the assumption that the Baku wouldn't have the exact same access to the radiation from the particles as the rest of the Federation's population.

They admittedly would no longer have exclusive access.
"Lifespans would be doubled." This is not the same as being immortal.



BillJ wrote: View Post

You mean the same Federation that tries to use the Prime Directive as a moral imperative to not help species facing extinction? The same Federation that sneaks around on other people's worlds in the name of "exploration"?


Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine.
This doesn't happen until Picard sticks his nose where it didn't belong and complicates the operation.
Poor Ru'afo. It's all Picard's fault! I can't believe why I didn't see that.

"You exiled us to die slowly!" Maybe he's trying to do the same thing to his parents! Parricide!

Oh, okay. So it's alright to be a murderer, as long as it's the Starfleet personnel so that the Federation "never knows what happens here." Killed Admiral Dougherty. But it's all Picard's fault.


Actually yes, pretty much everything that happens in INS after Picard stays in the Briar Patch after being ordered out IS his fault.


whatever you think about the decision to remove the Baku, it was a lawfully reached decision by a democratic government about a planet in its territory. Picard was given a lawful order from a higher-ranking officer and disobeyed it, then put the Baku DIRECTLY in harm's way whereas before they would have been safely removed. Picard's interference turned what would have been a peaceful resolution into a violent one, and the deaths of Dougherty, Ru'afo, various Son'a, etc. are all on him.


He did EXACTLY what he dressed-down Wesley for in "journey's end." He deserved a court-martial.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:32 PM   #491
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
he continually makes that argument in these threads on INS, that the Federation "doesn't really need" the stuff from the rings.
Lets see

-Medical technology that has people living at least till about 140 maybe longer.
-Once having the technology to create planets and in one case resurrect the dead.
-Once having the ability to transfer someone's mind into an android body with the personality more or less intact.
-The fact that the only thing standing between them and probably curing every disease, extending life spans who knows how long, and getting psychic powers is the ban on genetic engineering
-The fact Picard probably still remembers how to make anti-time particles which pretty much do the same damned thing as the rings.
-The fact that the transporter de-aged people TWICE.
-Not to mention the vast collection of records of alien super science Starfleet likely has by that point.

So exactly how do the magic particles trump every other magic tech usually encountered in Star Trek?

Because they only thing I can think of is the mistaken belief that for some reason they would actually be able to keep these particles unlike every over status quo breaker introduced in Star Trek.


this is all irrelevant to the issue of whether you accept the PREMISE of the movie that the particles are indeed revolutionary. It's sort of like how we have to accept the premise in "measure of a man" that the issue of Data's sentience hadn't been addressed BEFORE he applied to Starfleet. It's silly sure, but if you don't accept the premise, it's pointless to argue the pros and cons of the episode.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:36 PM   #492
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post

whatever you think about the decision to remove the Baku, ...
I think it does suck for the Ba'ku. But part of the problem is that they didn't take notice of the galaxy around them nor did they attempt to take an active role in their own protection.

Somewhere down the road, someone is going to find out what is hidden in the Briar Patch. There will sit six-hundred Ba'ku with no way to protect themselves nor the world they live on.

They should've attempted to work with the S'ona to secure their future instead of simply exiling them. They showed no vision for their way of life over the long term and eventually it will bite them in the ass.
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Old March 26 2014, 04:47 PM   #493
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Heck, for all we know three months after INS another group of Son'a arrived and finished what Ru'afo started.

Unless we're going to assume that in the middle of the most costly war the Federation ever faced they sent a fleet to blockade a planet of 600 people who were apparently unwilling to do anything to defend themselves.

And that's part of what irks me about the whole thing. It's not that they were unable, it's that they chose not to...but didn't even have the moral conviction to stand by that decision, instead letting Our Heroes fight their battle for them.

As opposed to the Caeliar, who might have allowed themselves to go extinct if it had come to that but at least weren't hypocritical about their pacifism. The Caeliar had other problems of course, but not ones germane to this discussion.
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Old March 26 2014, 05:36 PM   #494
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
In the real world, if a corporation or group of people were sitting on the cure for cancer and refusing to make it available, people would be foaming at the mouth and screaming for government intervention and rightly so.
This is why I believe that after a very brief "review" by the Federation Council , their original orders to collect the particles would be implemented. If not (and contingent on the matter becoming public) the Council representatives would likely be recalled and replaced by their respective home worlds and the new Council would have the particles collected.

I mean come on, billions of people being deigned a new advanced medical treatment owing to 600 people?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
"Just following orders" has led to many atrocities, democratically elected (Abu Graib) ...
Except of course the soldiers and civilians at Abu Graib who abused prisoners were arrested after their activities were discovered, indicating they weren't following the orders of their democratically elected government.

... or not (The Holocaust)
The Nazi government wasn't democratically elected?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Because they only thing I can think of is the mistaken belief that for some reason they would actually be able to keep these particles unlike every over status quo breaker introduced in Star Trek.
As you yourself pointed out, the Federation has been able to discover and utilize medical discoveries that advanced the Human lifespan up to 140 years, so apparently they can hold onto discoveries.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Even in the mid-24th century. There is probably a long list of ailments that 24th century science has yet to conquer.
One of which would be blindness.



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Old March 26 2014, 05:49 PM   #495
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
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Sounds like when they destroyed Earth in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Except ....

In Hitchhiker's there was no effort being made to safely move the population.

The population was there was indigenious.

The population wasn't just 600 people, all living in a single valley.

But other than those facts ...

Close enough though IMO

My people or some of my people have lived in my country for less than 300 years. I'd be unhappy to be forced to move because I'm not indigenous.

BillJ wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I'd be pretty cheesed off if the planet I lived on for 300 years was suddenly declared Federation Territory and they basically owned it and could destroy it at their leisure.
I've just never been all that attached to "property". If someone told me I had to move out of my house tomorrow to make way for something that benefits the whole community, I'd shrug my shoulders and move.
Really a home you'd lived in and owned for years you would be happy to give up and move to a hovel to the 'greater good'?
I'm not referring to you specifically here.

sonak wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I'd be pretty cheesed off if the planet I lived on for 300 years was suddenly declared Federation Territory and they basically owned it and could destroy it at their leisure. Sounds like when they destroyed Earth in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Sure its happened throughout history on Earth but we know now its not right.

And if the excuse for taking over the planet is 'its OK because we need it'. That's the excuse every invader, dictator, megalomaniac conqueror has used to justify their invasion of another territory on Earth.

Good luck on the Baku and Sona. Doesn't mean I like them. Doesn't mean the Federation should 'protect' them.
And if there are 600 Baku and 601 Sona and all the Sona vote for destruction then maybe the Federation can take their planet.


you'd be pretty "cheesed off" about moving so that a bunch of scientists can get at a medical miracle that can help billions?




Wow
I'm suspicious about the medical benefits and how they would be distributed to those in need?

And what are the 'needs'? Firmer boobs? A baldness cure? Sure Geordie's blindness was cured but how many blind people would there be in the Federation. Let them visit the planet.
I'd like to quantify the benefits before I'd go around destroying a planet.
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