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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 25 2014, 06:00 PM   #466
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
Are you suggesting that if the Federation had simply asked the Baku to share the particles that the Baku would have happily packed up and left the planet?

I find it more likely given what we see that they would have said, "Sorry for your problems, but they're none of our business." Which, ironically, is exactly what the Feds would have been in a position to say to the Baku when the Son'a came knocking.

The whole idea that whether you should be willing to make a small sacrifice to benefit even hundreds of other people should be contingent on whether you were asked nicely first is ridiculous. It no doubt becomes obvious to the Baku at some point during the film (if not decades earlier) that they're sitting on the Cure for Cancer, but instead of showing any willingness to share what they have for the benefit of many, many others? They sit on it. And they don't even have the courage of their convictions, because it's not like they actually refuse to see violence committed in their names...they just don't want to pull the triggers themselves. Yeah, that's noble.

How exactly is this -not- selfish?

Yes, I'd get pissy if I came home one day to find I'd been evicted. But I'd like to think I could look past my pride if I found that not only had I been evicted because my home contained the cure for AIDS, but I was being given a new home, free of charge, that was at least as nice as the one I'd been evicted from.

But hey, if you want to sit on a medical miracle until someone specifically asks how much you're willing to sell your house for, that's your business.

Good people don't wait to be asked for their help; good people offer their help.
I think it's selfish to expect that someone should give you what they have, even if they don't want to--or even know that you need it.

If someone does not offer what they have, like good people should, what then? Declare that they are not good people and take it from them?

What happens when you have something that someone else wants? Give it up freely, or be declared a "selfish bastard" and have it taken from you by force?

The big picture here is that this is a situation that should have been between the Baku and Sona. Regardless of any magical particles, the Federation should not have become involved until the age old dispute was settled.

Again, this attitude is troublesome to me.

1. It's pretty clear from the movie that the Baku would have said no. Look at the conversation Picard has with Anij after he discovers the truth about them.

2. the movie doesn't WANT the Baku to be asked directly, because that sabotages the movie. If the answer is "yes," there is no movie. If the answer is "no" Picard is left defending unsympathetic characters that the audience resents.


3. The ONLY thing stopping the Baku from being removed BY FORCE by the Son'a is that the Son'a assume the planet IS a Federation planet because it's in their space. If it's NOT, then the Son'a would have no reason to deal with the Federation at all, and the Federation has no reason to protect the Baku from what is basically a civil war.




The Baku are screwed either way, because the movie couldn't think of a premise that was consistent and made sense.
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Old March 25 2014, 06:02 PM   #467
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
If the answer is "no" Picard is left defending unsympathetic characters that the audience resents.
This seems to be exactly what happened anyway.
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Old March 25 2014, 06:09 PM   #468
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
If the answer is "no" Picard is left defending unsympathetic characters that the audience resents.
This seems to be exactly what happened anyway.


For a significant minority of fans, yes. It's why I have trouble watching it myself. SFDebris' review of it is really funny because he really rips into the Baku for their selfishness , smug superiority, and hypocrisy.
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Old March 25 2014, 06:13 PM   #469
Hober Mallow
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
sonak wrote: View Post
If the answer is "no" Picard is left defending unsympathetic characters that the audience resents.
This seems to be exactly what happened anyway.


For a significant minority of fans, yes. It's why I have trouble watching it myself. SFDebris' review of it is really funny because he really rips into the Baku for their selfishness , smug superiority, and hypocrisy.
Yes, but they're pretty and the bad guys are ugly. Isn't that all you really need to know?
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Old March 25 2014, 06:18 PM   #470
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I'd be pretty cheesed off if the planet I lived on for 300 years was suddenly declared Federation Territory and they basically owned it and could destroy it at their leisure. Sounds like when they destroyed Earth in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Sure its happened throughout history on Earth but we know now its not right.

And if the excuse for taking over the planet is 'its OK because we need it'. That's the excuse every invader, dictator, megalomaniac conqueror has used to justify their invasion of another territory on Earth.

Good luck on the Baku and Sona. Doesn't mean I like them. Doesn't mean the Federation should 'protect' them.
And if there are 600 Baku and 601 Sona and all the Sona vote for destruction then maybe the Federation can take their planet.
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Old March 25 2014, 06:25 PM   #471
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
Sounds like when they destroyed Earth in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.
Except ....

In Hitchhiker's there was no effort being made to safely move the population.

The population was there was indigenious.

The population wasn't just 600 people, all living in a single valley.

But other than those facts ...

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Old March 25 2014, 06:43 PM   #472
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I'd be pretty cheesed off if the planet I lived on for 300 years was suddenly declared Federation Territory and they basically owned it and could destroy it at their leisure.
I've just never been all that attached to "property". If someone told me I had to move out of my house tomorrow to make way for something that benefits the whole community, I'd shrug my shoulders and move.
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Old March 25 2014, 07:18 PM   #473
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I think it's also one thing to talk about property in a contemporary context, and quite another to talk about it in a future where you could theoretically spend your entire life in a holodeck and be happy to do so. Or be moved effortlessly and have a new home set up for you free of charge that's at least as good as the one you left.

It's not like the Federation was going to just dump the Baku off on a Demon-class planet.

...though some of us might think the Baku had it coming.
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Old March 25 2014, 07:19 PM   #474
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
I'd be pretty cheesed off if the planet I lived on for 300 years was suddenly declared Federation Territory and they basically owned it and could destroy it at their leisure. Sounds like when they destroyed Earth in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. Sure its happened throughout history on Earth but we know now its not right.

And if the excuse for taking over the planet is 'its OK because we need it'. That's the excuse every invader, dictator, megalomaniac conqueror has used to justify their invasion of another territory on Earth.

Good luck on the Baku and Sona. Doesn't mean I like them. Doesn't mean the Federation should 'protect' them.
And if there are 600 Baku and 601 Sona and all the Sona vote for destruction then maybe the Federation can take their planet.


you'd be pretty "cheesed off" about moving so that a bunch of scientists can get at a medical miracle that can help billions?




Wow
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Old March 25 2014, 07:23 PM   #475
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I think it's also one thing to talk about property in a contemporary context, and quite another to talk about it in a future where you could theoretically spend your entire life in a holodeck and be happy to do so. Or be moved effortlessly and have a new home set up for you free of charge that's at least as good as the one you left.

It's not like the Federation was going to just dump the Baku off on a Demon-class planet.

...though some of us might think the Baku had it coming.


Well, the real elephant in the room here is the immortality thing, isn't it? The Baku are placing their immortality above the needs of the billions in the Federation.


Ironically, it's what Picard condemns Soran for in Generations. The nexus and immortality was more important for him than the hundreds of millions in the Veridian system.


But then Soran was meant to be a villain, whereas the Baku...
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Old March 25 2014, 07:25 PM   #476
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[QUOTE=Hartzilla2007;9399778]
DonIago wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post
that they're sitting on the Cure for Cancer,
The federation already has a cure for cancer, they also have magic pills that either fixs failed kidneys or possibly cause new ones to spontaneous grow.

Good people don't wait to be asked for their help; good people offer their help.
So if a person doesn't want to donate something because the procedure is risky they should be forced to undergo the procedure because of not being moral enough to have the right to decide.
If the Federation already had the benefits that the rings offer why would they be pursuing them?

As for your analogy, I'm sure you realize exactly how flawed it is. Among other things, you omitted the part about saving thousands+ people.
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Old March 25 2014, 10:04 PM   #477
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[QUOTE=DonIago;9400411]
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
DonIago wrote: View Post

The federation already has a cure for cancer, they also have magic pills that either fixs failed kidneys or possibly cause new ones to spontaneous grow.



So if a person doesn't want to donate something because the procedure is risky they should be forced to undergo the procedure because of not being moral enough to have the right to decide.
If the Federation already had the benefits that the rings offer why would they be pursuing them?

As for your analogy, I'm sure you realize exactly how flawed it is. Among other things, you omitted the part about saving thousands+ people.


he continually makes that argument in these threads on INS, that the Federation "doesn't really need" the stuff from the rings. Much like the argument that Dougherty was lying about acting on orders, it's an argument that implicitly CRITICIZES the film, because it refuses to take the film's own premise at face value.

According to INS, the Federation can use these particles to benefit billions, but that point is inconvenient to the "anti-removal" crowd so it gets hand waved away by saying the Federation already has tech that can do the same thing.


As for the idea that the procedure is "risky" I haven't seen that indicated anywhere. The only risk is to the inhabitants IF they were still on the planet. But there's no risk once they're safely relocated.
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Old March 26 2014, 12:45 PM   #478
HaventGotALife
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
1. It's pretty clear from the movie that the Baku would have said no. Look at the conversation Picard has with Anij after he discovers the truth about them.
Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal. For the same reasons the Son'a want the rings, the Ba'ku could want them as well. They would be forced to start over, and this time, without the natural rings. Their aversion to technology, and the fact that lifespans will only be "doubled," not made immortal, means they will not have the same things they had if they were on another planet. The Son'a don't want to live in the Briar Patch. They didn't 100 years ago, either. They want to be a player in the political powers of the time, as well as live 300 years. So all this back and forth is really for nothing.


sonak wrote: View Post
2. the movie doesn't WANT the Baku to be asked directly, because that sabotages the movie. If the answer is "yes," there is no movie. If the answer is "no" Picard is left defending unsympathetic characters that the audience resents.
No, it doesn't. You are supposed to be shocked that the Federation would be willing to destroy a culture in order to advance their own selfish causes. It doesn't matter what's on the other side of that. The ends don't justify the means, according to Picard and anyone else with a soul in the 24th century. 600 people or not, this is a unique culture. They apprentice for 30 years, they use essentially mindfulness to heighten the sense of the moment, they don't explore the galaxy anymore. It is a unique culture. One, that at looking at the script, is a possible reaction to the Dominion War without screwing DS9. All life is almost in ruin. The Federation started a war and people could get sick of space travel because of it. Some of us don't wallow in our trauma. We move on and embrace everything we hold dear, taking special delight in it.

sonak wrote: View Post
3. The ONLY thing stopping the Baku from being removed BY FORCE by the Son'a is that the Son'a assume the planet IS a Federation planet because it's in their space. If it's NOT, then the Son'a would have no reason to deal with the Federation at all, and the Federation has no reason to protect the Baku from what is basically a civil war.
Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine. I'm going to launch the injector." The rouse that this is a medical advancement keeps them from fighting a war with the Federation. It is in Federation space. If they went around destroying planets, the Federation would look into why. Picard is treating them as a colony in Federation space. It will destroy their culture because the entire planet has to be uninhabited. This denies the right of life of everything on the planet, including the plants, animals, and the Ba'ku. Simply because you do not like the culture (I don't know why you don't like them), doesn't mean they are worthy of being destroyed, especially in the 24th century Star Trek has created.

sonak wrote: View Post
The Baku are screwed either way, because the movie couldn't think of a premise that was consistent and made sense.
I doubt we'll change each other's minds, but the script isn't as bad as you think.
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Old March 26 2014, 01:04 PM   #479
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
No, it doesn't. You are supposed to be shocked that the Federation would be willing to destroy a culture in order to advance their own selfish causes.
You mean the same Federation that tries to use the Prime Directive as a moral imperative to not help species facing extinction? The same Federation that sneaks around on other people's worlds in the name of "exploration"?


Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine.
This doesn't happen until Picard sticks his nose where it didn't belong and complicates the operation.
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Old March 26 2014, 01:09 PM   #480
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife wrote: View Post
Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal.
That makes the assumption that the Baku wouldn't have the exact same access to the radiation from the particles as the rest of the Federation's population.

They admittedly would no longer have exclusive access.

Ru'afo does try to take them by force. "The Federation will never know what happened here." "If the Ba'ku want to stay on the planet, fine. I'm going to launch the injector." Ok, true, but not relevant. Without Data going crazy, these people are sentenced to die where they would be immortal.
That was Ruafo acting out of growing desperation, the medical treatments keeping him alive would no longer work. Prior to that the Sona were trying to avoid harming the Baku. Even after ordering the injector launched, Ruafo still acted to protect the Baku who were already off the planet.

RU'AFO: Separate the Starfleet personnel and secure them in the aft cargo hold.

GALLATIN: The shields in that section won't protect them against the thermolytic reaction.


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