RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 142,285
Posts: 5,552,626
Members: 25,267
Currently online: 512
Newest member: jasian1

TrekToday headlines

Star Trek Online Celebrates Five Years
By: T'Bonz on Jan 27

WizKids/Star Trek Online Caption Contest
By: T'Bonz on Jan 26

No Quinto In Heroes Reborn
By: T'Bonz on Jan 26

Pine Responds To Pegg Writer Announcement
By: T'Bonz on Jan 26

Retro Review: Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges
By: Michelle on Jan 24

Urban in Aquaman?
By: T'Bonz on Jan 23

Pegg Co-writing Star Trek 3
By: T'Bonz on Jan 22

Stewart Narrated NASA Documentary
By: T'Bonz on Jan 21

Star Trek 3 Filming To Begin
By: T'Bonz on Jan 21

IDW Publishing Trek Comics For April 2015
By: T'Bonz on Jan 20


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 24 2014, 05:42 PM   #451
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Wouldn't solve the question of why the Baku need the -entire planet- though...
Some non-native microbe in the Feddies bloodstream that could kill massive chunks of the population? Bump the number from 600 to 6 million-plus natives.

or the effect is localized to a specific area of the planet.

Or, there is no effect to be harvested and the only reason that it works on the Baku is cause of something unique to their bodies.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2014, 05:56 PM   #452
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post

Or, there is no effect to be harvested and the only reason that it works on the Baku is cause of something unique to their bodies.
Which isn't the case because Geordi grew new eyes while there.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2014, 06:07 PM   #453
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

^ And Beverly and Deanna grew firmer boobs.

(The real reason the Federation wanted the particles)



T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2014, 06:23 PM   #454
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,
You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?

Seems kind of hard to have a better claim on a planet than people who were living there before your government existed.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2014, 06:32 PM   #455
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,
You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?

Seems kind of hard to have a better claim on a planet than people who were living there before your government existed.


Regardless of who was there if one of the Empire's in the area had the planet as part of its territory then gave that territory to the Federation during a treaty negotiation, then the planet would still belong to the Federation.

We know two hundred years prior to Insurrection that the area belonged to the Klingons. It isn't a stretch to think it belonged to them three hundred years earlier.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2014, 06:32 PM   #456
T'Girl
Vice Admiral
 
T'Girl's Avatar
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,
You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?
Yes, that's the one the Baku are not indigenous too.

What would the substance of any claim on their parts be based on anyway?

"We got here first?"

T'Girl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 24 2014, 06:34 PM   #457
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post

What's their hold on the planet based on anyway? "We got here first?"
I'll refer you to the court case *"Finders vs. Keepers".

*Couldn't find the Futurama clip on YouTube.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 02:03 AM   #458
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
We know two hundred years prior to Insurrection that the area belonged to the Klingons. It isn't a stretch to think it belonged to them three hundred years earlier.
except the episode mentions that the Klingons hadn't mapped the Briar Patch at the time of the episode except that they knew of two inhabitable planets in the region, so this coupled with the Klingons not bothering with the two planets implies that either the klingons just moved into the general area or they just don't give a crap about it enough to go formally taking control through their usual conquering planets and setting up bases stick.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 02:47 AM   #459
urbandefault
Fleet Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The big thing here is that no one ever asked the Baku. About anything.

The Sona lied from the beginning to the Feds. That automatically makes them suspect.

The fact that they were expelled from the Baku village did not condemn them to a slow death. That is something they chose on their own. If they were not happy with their decision, they could always have gone back and lived in peace on another part of the planet.

It does not matter what benefit the particles or radiation or whatever could provide to anyone else. That is beside the fact that The Sona were exacting revenge on their families. Starfleet, personified by Doughery, did not do its due diligence in discovering the Sona's motives.

It bothers me that so many people here hold that the Baku were "selfish bastards."

If I have something that you think you need, will you come and take it by force? Or will you ask me if I am willing to share? How do you know that I am not sharing already?

The attitudes in this thread tells me a lot about the people who take one side or the other, and I am not at all happy about it.

Not happy at all.
__________________
"GARY BUSEY!" - Gary Busey
urbandefault is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 03:25 AM   #460
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Are you suggesting that if the Federation had simply asked the Baku to share the particles that the Baku would have happily packed up and left the planet?

I find it more likely given what we see that they would have said, "Sorry for your problems, but they're none of our business." Which, ironically, is exactly what the Feds would have been in a position to say to the Baku when the Son'a came knocking.

The whole idea that whether you should be willing to make a small sacrifice to benefit even hundreds of other people should be contingent on whether you were asked nicely first is ridiculous. It no doubt becomes obvious to the Baku at some point during the film (if not decades earlier) that they're sitting on the Cure for Cancer, but instead of showing any willingness to share what they have for the benefit of many, many others? They sit on it. And they don't even have the courage of their convictions, because it's not like they actually refuse to see violence committed in their names...they just don't want to pull the triggers themselves. Yeah, that's noble.

How exactly is this -not- selfish?

Yes, I'd get pissy if I came home one day to find I'd been evicted. But I'd like to think I could look past my pride if I found that not only had I been evicted because my home contained the cure for AIDS, but I was being given a new home, free of charge, that was at least as nice as the one I'd been evicted from.

But hey, if you want to sit on a medical miracle until someone specifically asks how much you're willing to sell your house for, that's your business.

Good people don't wait to be asked for their help; good people offer their help.
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 03:55 AM   #461
urbandefault
Fleet Captain
 
urbandefault's Avatar
 
Location: Chicken pot, chicken pot, chicken pot pie!
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Are you suggesting that if the Federation had simply asked the Baku to share the particles that the Baku would have happily packed up and left the planet?

I find it more likely given what we see that they would have said, "Sorry for your problems, but they're none of our business." Which, ironically, is exactly what the Feds would have been in a position to say to the Baku when the Son'a came knocking.

The whole idea that whether you should be willing to make a small sacrifice to benefit even hundreds of other people should be contingent on whether you were asked nicely first is ridiculous. It no doubt becomes obvious to the Baku at some point during the film (if not decades earlier) that they're sitting on the Cure for Cancer, but instead of showing any willingness to share what they have for the benefit of many, many others? They sit on it. And they don't even have the courage of their convictions, because it's not like they actually refuse to see violence committed in their names...they just don't want to pull the triggers themselves. Yeah, that's noble.

How exactly is this -not- selfish?

Yes, I'd get pissy if I came home one day to find I'd been evicted. But I'd like to think I could look past my pride if I found that not only had I been evicted because my home contained the cure for AIDS, but I was being given a new home, free of charge, that was at least as nice as the one I'd been evicted from.

But hey, if you want to sit on a medical miracle until someone specifically asks how much you're willing to sell your house for, that's your business.

Good people don't wait to be asked for their help; good people offer their help.
I think it's selfish to expect that someone should give you what they have, even if they don't want to--or even know that you need it.

If someone does not offer what they have, like good people should, what then? Declare that they are not good people and take it from them?

What happens when you have something that someone else wants? Give it up freely, or be declared a "selfish bastard" and have it taken from you by force?

The big picture here is that this is a situation that should have been between the Baku and Sona. Regardless of any magical particles, the Federation should not have become involved until the age old dispute was settled.

Again, this attitude is troublesome to me.
__________________
"GARY BUSEY!" - Gary Busey
urbandefault is online now   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 04:53 AM   #462
DonIago
Rear Admiral
 
Location: Burlington, VT, USA
View DonIago's Twitter Profile Send a message via ICQ to DonIago Send a message via AIM to DonIago Send a message via Yahoo to DonIago
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I'll hardly defend the Federation's obvious shortfalls in research regarding the situation...though it's unclear how far along their research actually was before Picard arrived and escalated the situation. That said, Dougherty did push to halt the operation once he realized the true nature of the conflict.

Then Ru'afo killed him.

But let's say that Dougherty had lived. Assuming the Feds had pulled back, I think we all know how matters would have proceeded...the Son'a walk away with the particles and the Baku die. Is that a preferable outcome? Are we just concerned with Our Heroes coming out of this with their morals intact?

If you want to say the Baku should have been asked first, I don't disagree, though I think the asking would have gone precisely nowhere, since even when the Baku become aware of what's at stake they don't show any willingness to discuss the matter. The greater concern to me is that you're still left with one hell of a problem because you've got the Fountain of Youth sitting on a planet that's essentially undefended.

As for whether the Baku should be expected to share...if it's selfish of me to think that if you have the Cure for Cancer then you should be expected to share it, color me selfish and unapologetic about it. I'm not saying that it should be taken by force, but my sympathies towards, say, a country that was willing to just sit on such a boon to a large population would be quite limited. But perhaps I'm biased given that my grandmother died of cancer.

Speaking as an American, my understanding is that we do a damn lot of good for the welfare of other countries' populations, and if we had the ability to and just sat on it? I wouldn't blame anyone else for resenting us, and possibly trying to take it by force. How do you justify hoarding -medical benefits-?
__________________
--DonIago
It was the best of Trek, it was the worst of Trek...
"If I lean over, I leave myself open to wedgies, wet willies, or even the dreaded Rear Admiral!"

Last edited by DonIago; March 25 2014 at 05:05 AM.
DonIago is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 04:54 AM   #463
Vasquez Rocks
Commodore
 
Vasquez Rocks's Avatar
 
Location: Vasquez Rocks
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
The Admiral points out that they're not indigenous to the Federation planet,
You mean the planet the Ba'ku colonized about 100 years before the federation even existed?
Yes, that's the one the Baku are not indigenous too.

What would the substance of any claim on their parts be based on anyway?

"We got here first?"

What about all the Ba'ku that are under 309 years old and were born on the planet? Wouldn't they have some right to call it their birthplace.
Vasquez Rocks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 11:17 AM   #464
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
The big picture here is that this is a situation that should have been between the Baku and Sona. Regardless of any magical particles, the Federation should not have become involved until the age old dispute was settled.
Problem is that if the Federation follows their own moral imperatives, the S'ona cook the Ba'ku and then leave and share the particles with Federation opponents.

Two, no one can ask the Ba'ku to leave. If they say yes, then there's no movie. If they say no, then they completely lose the sympathetic angle.
__________________
"...the most elementary and valuable statement in science, the beginning of wisdom, is I do not know." - Lt. Commander Data, "Where Silence Has Lease"
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old March 25 2014, 04:35 PM   #465
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[QUOTE=DonIago;9398269]
DonIago wrote: View Post
that they're sitting on the Cure for Cancer,
The federation already has a cure for cancer, they also have magic pills that either fixs failed kidneys or possibly cause new ones to spontaneous grow.

Good people don't wait to be asked for their help; good people offer their help.
So if a person doesn't want to donate something because the procedure is risky they should be forced to undergo the procedure because of not being moral enough to have the right to decide.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.