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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 17 2014, 11:13 PM   #406
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus if all else fails it's not like the federation can't just put some orbital defense platforms in place and call it a day.
But that isn't the Federations job. If they want to petition for membership, join and contribute to it then you could possibly make that argument. But the Federation isn't an intergalactic police force.
And yet the federation didn't mind putting the leaving alone of pre-warp planets under penalty of full scale war into at least one treaty with a rival power.

Plus again I don't see why the federation would bother mentioning the planet and/or the magic rings to anyone, and considering it's located in a crapy part of space unless the tell anyone about this stuff it's doubtful anyone would go near the place.

I mean we are talking about an area of space where communications can be questionable and volatile gas clouds capable of destroying or seriously damage starships are floating around. I can't see anyone in their right mind other that Starfleet wanting to visit the place.

er, the SON'A ALREADY KNOW WHERE IT IS. The only reason they didn't just invade in the first place is because they knew it was in Federation space. Since Picard betrayed them and the Son'a became Dominion allies, they have every reason to tell the Dominion and the Cardassians about the planet.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:41 PM   #407
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

But that isn't the Federations job. If they want to petition for membership, join and contribute to it then you could possibly make that argument. But the Federation isn't an intergalactic police force.
And yet the federation didn't mind putting the leaving alone of pre-warp planets under penalty of full scale war into at least one treaty with a rival power.

Plus again I don't see why the federation would bother mentioning the planet and/or the magic rings to anyone, and considering it's located in a crapy part of space unless the tell anyone about this stuff it's doubtful anyone would go near the place.

I mean we are talking about an area of space where communications can be questionable and volatile gas clouds capable of destroying or seriously damage starships are floating around. I can't see anyone in their right mind other that Starfleet wanting to visit the place.
You likely had a thousand-plus Starfleet personnel there during the mission. Good luck keeping them all quiet.
Its called the threat of court martial if they divulge classified information.

Which they should be if they are divulging classified information, and no they're feelings on the matter don't mean jack because they are in a military organization which isn't a democracy.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:48 PM   #408
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

But that isn't the Federations job. If they want to petition for membership, join and contribute to it then you could possibly make that argument. But the Federation isn't an intergalactic police force.
And yet the federation didn't mind putting the leaving alone of pre-warp planets under penalty of full scale war into at least one treaty with a rival power.

Plus again I don't see why the federation would bother mentioning the planet and/or the magic rings to anyone, and considering it's located in a crapy part of space unless the tell anyone about this stuff it's doubtful anyone would go near the place.

I mean we are talking about an area of space where communications can be questionable and volatile gas clouds capable of destroying or seriously damage starships are floating around. I can't see anyone in their right mind other that Starfleet wanting to visit the place.

er, the SON'A ALREADY KNOW WHERE IT IS. The only reason they didn't just invade in the first place is because they knew it was in Federation space. Since Picard betrayed them and the Son'a became Dominion allies, they have every reason to tell the Dominion and the Cardassians about the planet.
Depends on when Insurrection takes place in regards to to DS9, could take place before their DS9 mention and it could take place after.

The fact that Picard was looking forward to an archaeological dig that was interrupted by a diplomatic thing becuase the federation is busy negotiating with the Dominion could place to during the time it likely took to finish negotiating the Dominion's surrender. Especially since Ru'afo seemed to refer to conflict with the Dominion in the past tense and that it was about 2 years since First Contact (which was around mid season 5) which would put the film during season 7.

So the Son'a might not be able to tell the Dominion squat and it still leaves their post Insurrection stance on the Ba'ku in question since they seemed to be reconciling at the end of the film.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:51 PM   #409
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
...and no they're feelings on the matter don't mean jack because they are in a military organization which isn't a democracy.
Funny, one could make that very same argument in regards to Picard's actions in the Briar Patch. Which includes violating orders before he ever knew what was going.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:52 PM   #410
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Depends on when Insurrection takes place in regards to to DS9, could take place before their DS9 mention and it could take place after.

The fact that Picard was looking forward to an archaeological dig that was interrupted by a diplomatic thing becuase the federation is busy negotiating with the Dominion could place to during the time it likely took to finish negotiating the Dominion's surrender. Especially since Ru'afo seemed to refer to conflict with the Dominion in the past tense and that it was about 2 years since First Contact (which was around mid season 5) which would put the film during season 7.
The fact that Worf is still in Starfleet would put the film before the end of the war.
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Old March 18 2014, 12:30 AM   #411
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I have INS playing now.

Sojef and Anij have informed Picard that they have tech that they choose not to use.

More to come ...
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Old March 18 2014, 12:50 AM   #412
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

"The Sona could establish a colony on another part of the planet."

"How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong?"

EDIT: Watching the battle in the hills. How is this not classic Trek?

Picard: "You wouldn't kill your own people, Ruafo. Your own parents."

("Parricide." Sorry, I've never seen that word before.)

Sona guy whose name I didn't catch: "It will kill them all."
Ruafo: "No one hated them more than you."

Picard: "It's hard not to see how it's turned Ruafo into a madman. And you, into a coward. A man that denies his own conscience. A coward without the moral courage to prevent an atrocity."

"Is this how a Federation officer pleads for his life?"

"I'm not pleading for my life, I'm pleading for yours."

Additional edit:

After going through the movie again, my opinion has not changed. The Baku should have been left alone.

Sorry folks, but Picard was right.
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Last edited by urbandefault; March 18 2014 at 01:43 AM.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:33 AM   #413
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
...and no they're feelings on the matter don't mean jack because they are in a military organization which isn't a democracy.
Funny, one could make that very same argument in regards to Picard's actions in the Briar Patch. Which includes violating orders before he ever knew what was going.
It was called investigating why Data went nuts. Which Dougherty agreed to if you will recall.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:55 AM   #414
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
"The Sona could establish a colony on another part of the planet."

"How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong?"

EDIT: Watching the battle in the hills. How is this not classic Trek?

Picard: "You wouldn't kill your own people, Ruafo. Your own parents."

("Parricide." Sorry, I've never seen that word before.)

Sona guy whose name I didn't catch: "It will kill them all."
Ruafo: "No one hated them more than you."

Picard: "It's hard not to see how it's turned Ruafo into a madman. And you, into a coward. A man that denies his own conscience. A coward without the moral courage to prevent an atrocity."

"Is this how a Federation officer pleads for his life?"

"I'm not pleading for my life, I'm pleading for yours."

Additional edit:

After going through the movie again, my opinion has not changed. The Baku should have been left alone.

Sorry folks, but Picard was right.


based on what principle? I continue to be amazed at this perspective. There are really only two possibilities once you ignore the whole "greater good" argument that the Baku should be removed.


It's either:

A) A planet in Federation space, whereby the Federation has the right to remove them from their territory

or

B) It's not, but the PD applies, in which case the SON'A have an equal claim on the planet and Picard and the Federation should get out of the way.



There is literally NO argument for saying that it's NOT a Federation planet and yet Picard is right to defend the Baku from the Son'a. The "anti-removal" side wants to have it both ways, arguing that "the Baku should be left alone" AND that they should be defended from anyone who would remove them to get at the planet's resources.


Heads you win, tails you win.
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Old March 18 2014, 03:58 AM   #415
sonak
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
...and no they're feelings on the matter don't mean jack because they are in a military organization which isn't a democracy.
Funny, one could make that very same argument in regards to Picard's actions in the Briar Patch. Which includes violating orders before he ever knew what was going.
It was called investigating why Data went nuts. Which Dougherty agreed to if you will recall.


nope-there is very clearly a point at which Dougherty orders Picard to leave the area AFTER they've recovered Data and yet Picard ignores it to continue his investigation. At that point he's violating orders that he has no reason not to think are legit.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:36 AM   #416
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

This movie would have been a lot more interesting if Dougherty had at least one Starfleet ship in the area that respected his POV. One wonders whether Our Heroes would have been so willing to engage in hostilities with their own people versus a bunch of (manipulatively) ugly aliens.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:44 AM   #417
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post

Funny, one could make that very same argument in regards to Picard's actions in the Briar Patch. Which includes violating orders before he ever knew what was going.
It was called investigating why Data went nuts. Which Dougherty agreed to if you will recall.


nope-there is very clearly a point at which Dougherty orders Picard to leave the area AFTER they've recovered Data and yet Picard ignores it to continue his investigation. At that point he's violating orders that he has no reason not to think are legit.
And at the point after they knew Data was shot by the Son'a before he malfunctioned, so he kind of has a reason to suspect something rotten is going on.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:53 AM   #418
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

I think there's probably a good argument to be had as to whether suspecting something rotten is going on is sufficient grounds for disobeying orders from a flag officer.

Let's not forget that unless you want to believe Dougherty was a rogue officer...which would certainly make some arguments easier here...he was operating under orders from the Federation Council. Picard didn't even bother to check with anyone before launching his private little war.
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Old March 18 2014, 04:55 AM   #419
Hartzilla2007
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
This movie would have been a lot more interesting if Dougherty had at least one Starfleet ship in the area that respected his POV. One wonders whether Our Heroes would have been so willing to engage in hostilities with their own people versus a bunch of (manipulatively) ugly aliens.
Well the crew of the Starfleet ship would probably be screwed if they went along with Ru'afo and Dougherty's plan to attack the Enterprise.

Say what you will about getting into a fire fight with Picard but unprovoked attacks on the Federation flagship just to stop them from complaining to the Federation council are not likely to well received by said council, what with Picard mentioning Dougherty possibly facing a court martial for that.
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Old March 18 2014, 05:10 AM   #420
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
I think there's probably a good argument to be had as to whether suspecting something rotten is going on is sufficient grounds for disobeying orders from a flag officer.
Of course on the other hand the fact that the species responsible is pretty shady added to the fact that the shooting implies they are hiding something might.

Let's not forget that unless you want to believe Dougherty was a rogue officer...which would certainly make some arguments easier here...he was operating under orders from the Federation Council.
Of course without the ability to contact the federation and confirm any of that, I question that.

And Starfleet's history of insane admirals doesn't incline me to believe him just because he says so.

Picard didn't even bother to check with anyone before launching his private little war.
He sent Riker to complain about it and Dougherty responded by agreeing to have the Enterprise attacked and possibly destroyed so, not really making Dougherty not look like a nutty admiral.

and again insane admirals are a thing and considering Picard met two of them and another one tried to launch a coup d'état against the Federation and all of them usually use the defense of doing it to save the federation I can't really blame Picard for thinking this might be another one of those and acting accordingly.
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