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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 17 2014, 09:17 PM   #391
DonIago
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

It doesn't matter what shape the empires are in. All you need is one ship with a crew that has the technology to do what needs to be done.

Hell, it could just as easily be one ship of humans who don't think 600 people have the moral right to refuse the metaphorical cure for cancer to millions.

Starfleet's going to have to picket the planet for the forseeable future, and given the known existence of corrupt agencies even within Starfleet it will be a minor miracle if violence doesn't ensue.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:17 PM   #392
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post

The Sona are the selfish ones here, demonstrated by their abandonment of their families only to come back when they found that they didn't like growing old. And Dougherty was a self-important jerk.
Say what? They were kicked off the planet because they wanted to do more than to be slaves to an Amish lifestyle.
And they got exactly what the wanted to run around the galaxy and do space faring civilization stuff.

I'm not seeing how the Son'a got screwed there seeing as they get to do what they want and their parents get to keep living their lifestyle.

Plus it would be kind of hypocritical for the Federation to criticize the Ba'ku considering one of its founding races basically did the same thing to others of their species and I don't see the Federation rushing to let the Romulans have Vulcan back.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:22 PM   #393
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post

The Sona weren't expelled, they left of their own accord. And much like the rebellious teen, they found that reality was much different than they had imagined.
Ru'afo says expelled and no one contradicts him on the point, not Anij and not Picard.

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.
ANIJ: You're Ro'tin, aren't you? ...There's something in the voice. (turning to Gallatin) ...Would you be his friend Gal'na? ...I helped your mother bathe you when you were a child. She still speaks of you.
PICARD: You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to parricide.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:32 PM   #394
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
It doesn't matter what shape the empires are in. All you need is one ship with a crew that has the technology to do what needs to be done.
Considering the Ba'ku and the Son'a look to be reconciling said ship and crew could be looking at an isolytic subspace weapon to the face if they try.

Plus you are under the assumption the Federation would tell anyone about the planet.

Hell, it could just as easily be one ship of humans who don't share Picard's views.
Assuming the Federation Council makes the existence of the planet public and/or doesn't put the place under some kind of quarantine, which according to TOS could have capital punishment as a consequence of violating.

Plus there is the whole evolved sensibilities thing outside of the criminal elements that Starfleet is supposed to be putting down anyway.

Plus against possible isolytic subspace weapon to the face.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:34 PM   #395
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus against possible isolytic subspace weapon to the face.
From the film:

TOURNEL: How can we possibly defend ourselves?
SOJEF: The moment we pick up a weapon, we become one of them. ...We lose everything we are.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:42 PM   #396
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus against possible isolytic subspace weapon to the face.
From the film:

TOURNEL: How can we possibly defend ourselves?
SOJEF: The moment we pick up a weapon, we become one of them. ...We lose everything we are.
Yeah, that's the Ba'ku stance not the possibly Ba'ku friendly Son'a stance.

Plus if all else fails it's not like the federation can't just put some orbital defense platforms in place and call it a day.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:42 PM   #397
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post

The Sona weren't expelled, they left of their own accord. And much like the rebellious teen, they found that reality was much different than they had imagined.
Ru'afo says expelled and no one contradicts him on the point, not Anij and not Picard.

SOJEF: A century ago, a group of our young people wanted to follow the ways of the offlanders. They tried to take over the colony and when they failed...
RU'AFO: And when we failed, you exiled us to die slowly.
ANIJ: You're Ro'tin, aren't you? ...There's something in the voice. (turning to Gallatin) ...Would you be his friend Gal'na? ...I helped your mother bathe you when you were a child. She still speaks of you.
PICARD: You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to parricide.
There it is, right there in your post.

PICARD: You brought the Federation into the middle of a blood feud, Admiral. The children have returned to expel their elders, just as they were once expelled. Except that Ru'afo's need for revenge has now escalated to patricide.
(spelling corrected )

The rebellious teen's story is often much different than that of the parents. That Ruafo's choice of words was not challenged doesn't mean anything. The Baku's calm avoidance of a pointless argument speaks volumes.

Who are you going to believe?
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Old March 17 2014, 09:44 PM   #398
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus if all else fails it's not like the federation can't just put some orbital defense platforms in place and call it a day.
But that isn't the Federations job. If they want to petition for membership, join and contribute to it then you could possibly make that argument. But the Federation isn't an intergalactic police force.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:46 PM   #399
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post

The rebellious teen's story is often much different than that of the parents. That Ruafo's choice of words was not challenged doesn't mean anything. The Baku's calm avoidance of a pointless argument speaks volumes.

Who are you going to believe?
Since the Ba'ku never once offered up who might be after their world? I'm likely going to believe the S'ona.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:49 PM   #400
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post

The rebellious teen's story is often much different than that of the parents. That Ruafo's choice of words was not challenged doesn't mean anything. The Baku's calm avoidance of a pointless argument speaks volumes.

Who are you going to believe?
Since the Ba'ku never once offered up who might be after their world? I'm likely going to believe the S'ona.
Ok, well, that's your prerogative. I disagree. Shake on it?
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Old March 17 2014, 09:54 PM   #401
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post

The rebellious teen's story is often much different than that of the parents. That Ruafo's choice of words was not challenged doesn't mean anything. The Baku's calm avoidance of a pointless argument speaks volumes.

Who are you going to believe?
Since the Ba'ku never once offered up who might be after their world? I'm likely going to believe the S'ona.
Ok, well, that's your prerogative. I disagree. Shake on it?
There's always much agreeing to disagree when it comes to Star Trek: Insurrection. It is actually my least favorite of the twelve films. I think there was a great idea in there, but it got lost somewhere along the way to production.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:16 PM   #402
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus if all else fails it's not like the federation can't just put some orbital defense platforms in place and call it a day.
But that isn't the Federations job. If they want to petition for membership, join and contribute to it then you could possibly make that argument. But the Federation isn't an intergalactic police force.
And yet the federation didn't mind putting the leaving alone of pre-warp planets under penalty of full scale war into at least one treaty with a rival power.

Plus again I don't see why the federation would bother mentioning the planet and/or the magic rings to anyone, and considering it's located in a crapy part of space unless the tell anyone about this stuff it's doubtful anyone would go near the place.

I mean we are talking about an area of space where communications can be questionable and volatile gas clouds capable of destroying or seriously damage starships are floating around. I can't see anyone in their right mind other that Starfleet wanting to visit the place.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:19 PM   #403
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post

Plus if all else fails it's not like the federation can't just put some orbital defense platforms in place and call it a day.
But that isn't the Federations job. If they want to petition for membership, join and contribute to it then you could possibly make that argument. But the Federation isn't an intergalactic police force.
And yet the federation didn't mind putting the leaving alone of pre-warp planets under penalty of full scale war into at least one treaty with a rival power.

Plus again I don't see why the federation would bother mentioning the planet and/or the magic rings to anyone, and considering it's located in a crapy part of space unless the tell anyone about this stuff it's doubtful anyone would go near the place.

I mean we are talking about an area of space where communications can be questionable and volatile gas clouds capable of destroying or seriously damage starships are floating around. I can't see anyone in their right mind other that Starfleet wanting to visit the place.
You likely had a thousand-plus Starfleet personnel there during the mission. Good luck keeping them all quiet.
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Old March 17 2014, 10:37 PM   #404
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Especially if one of those people has allegiances to S31.
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Old March 17 2014, 11:09 PM   #405
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
Sonak:

Selfish bastards?

The Baku had been living peacefully on the planet for hundreds of years. The planet was uninhabited when they found it, and decided to settle there long before any claims to the surrounding space. Their wish to be left alone is something the Federation must respect, regardless of the Baku's ability to achieve warp travel.

Since there was no initial indication that the Baku were anything but what they appeared to be, the Federation should have left them alone. Prime Directive. Period.

If they wanted to experiment with the radiation or particles or whatever, they could have done so without the Baku ever knowing. The fact that the Federation Council took the Sona at their word is a demonstration of how people can be made to compromise their values by the lure of possible immortality.

The Sona are the selfish ones here, demonstrated by their abandonment of their families only to come back when they found that they didn't like growing old. And Dougherty was a self-important jerk.


1. Prime Directive clearly doesn't apply. The Baku are not indigenous, pre-warp, or pre-contact. And if it DID apply, it would mean that the Federation should have let the Son'a remove the Baku.


2. The Baku knew full well that they had stumbled upon a revolutionary medical resource that could benefit billions. They decided that their Amish, hypocritical pacifist lifestyle(others can fight FOR THEM, but they can't fight for themselves) was more important than letting the outside races find out what the Baku had found.



Selfish Bastards



deserved whatever was coming to them
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