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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old March 17 2014, 04:03 AM   #376
Edit_XYZ
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

HaventGotALife
"the Federation shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You are bringing your own morality to the question. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states"
You made yourself quite clear about what 'they' you were talking about.

"It's not double-speak."
Ookie-dookie.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:21 AM   #377
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
HaventGotALife
"the Federation shouldn't make the distinction of killing humans or killing birds or flowers. It's life. You are bringing your own morality to the question. You think sentience is limited to human beings. I don't think that it is and as we get more and more data that proves they have culture and emotional states"
You made yourself quite clear about what 'they' you were talking about.

"It's not double-speak."
Ookie-dookie.
It's not the intention. They is "life." The reference to birds and flowers is the scene before Picard says "I apologize for our intrusion." It was meant to make a larger point about how ridiculous the sentence that sentient beings is limited to humanoids. It was not meant to refer to the Birds and flowers. That was a Federation distinction. The mention of sentience is directed at the poster. You misinterpreted my post. I see your point, maybe it's sloppy writing, but that was never my intention.
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Old March 17 2014, 01:45 PM   #378
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

My understanding is that a key element of sentience is self-awareness. AFAIA there's no evidence that birds or flowers possess self-awareness. Hell, in TNG's time it was even a question whether Data or the EMH possessed sentience.

In any event, I'm fine with the Feds relocating/repopulating the non-sentient life, and within the context of the film the only race that's brought up as a concern is the known sentient one, who are willingly squatting on what may essentially be an interstellar-scale cure for cancer, located on a planet that they only ended up on because they got lucky. Sure nobody likes moving, but show some damn compassion for your fellow sentient beings.

As was once pointed out to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, "You're not better than us; you're just luckier."
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Old March 17 2014, 02:11 PM   #379
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

What are people really supporting the federation engaging in 19th century style Imperalism, now of all times.

Of course it was nice of the federation to at lest be honest about it rather than hiding it behind a questionable referendum vote like another federation is currently doing.
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Old March 17 2014, 03:23 PM   #380
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
What are people really supporting the federation engaging in 19th century style Imperalism, now of all times.

Of course it was nice of the federation to at lest be honest about it rather than hiding it behind a questionable referendum vote like another federation is currently doing.
I don't see anyone here supporting the tactics used in the Imperialism you're comparing this scenario to.

Believing the Ba'ku should relocate is a far cry from advocating for giving them smallpox-laced blankets, forcing them into reservations, killing anyone who won't leave, etc.

Also, 19th century style Imperialism involved the relocation of people -from their homelands-, not from places that weren't theirs to begin with.

Also, the people who were moved hadn't opted to settle in one place and refuse to move upon being told that if they moved their land could be used to ease the suffering of millions of people.

If you're going to issue implicit criticisms of those who don't agree with your views, I recommend picking an analogy that would fit better.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:04 PM   #381
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
What are people really supporting the federation engaging in 19th century style Imperalism, now of all times.

Of course it was nice of the federation to at lest be honest about it rather than hiding it behind a questionable referendum vote like another federation is currently doing.


of course no one here is supporting "19th century" imperialism," they're supporting the perfectly reasonable concept that a small, non-indigenous village doesn't have the right to hoard a miracle medical advance that can help billions.

playing the name-calling card won't make your position any less absurd.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:21 PM   #382
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The phrase "the ends justify the means" seems to be applicable to many opinions on this situation, even if no one has put it in those words up to this point. The problem with that is that once you can convince yourself that it is ok in one instance, it's easy to apply it in the next.

That looks like a very slippery slope to me.
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Old March 17 2014, 05:54 PM   #383
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

DonIago wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
What are people really supporting the federation engaging in 19th century style Imperalism, now of all times.

Of course it was nice of the federation to at lest be honest about it rather than hiding it behind a questionable referendum vote like another federation is currently doing.
I don't see anyone here supporting the tactics used in the Imperialism you're comparing this scenario to.
Let's see 1) invading someone else's territory because they have something they want - check, 2) (which can be optional) one of the defenses for said annexation is a dislike of the Ba'ku's lifestyle and or beliefs. Aka all the bashing the Ba'ku for being anti tech pacifists - check, 3) (also optional I believe) some sanctimonious justification for the whole affair, ie spreading democracy, saving the heathen locals from hell, supporting the Russian majority who became a majority after they wiped out most of the previous majority, and ect. Or in the federation's case taking a resource they have a questionable need for and planing to horde it for themselves - check.

Believing the Ba'ku should relocate is a far cry from advocating for giving them smallpox-laced blankets, forcing them into reservations, killing anyone who won't leave, etc.
No, they just tried tokidnap them and shot at them.

Also what exactly is the difference between forcing people onto reservations and kidnapping them and dumping them in another place largely at gun point after the stealth abduction plan had to be scraped?

Also, 19th century style Imperialism involved the relocation of people -from their homelands-, not from places that weren't theirs to begin with.
They have a better claim to it then a civilization that didn't even exist when the Ba'ku colonized the planet.

Besides the homeland thing falls apart when you remember that with the way people have moved around on the planet in the past, that if one goes far enough back not many people are that indigenous to the nations they formed. They just lived their a really really long time.

Besides, last I checked the Romulans weren't indigenous to Romulus and Remus and I doubt the Federation would try to claim those planets on that basis.

[/quote]
Also, the people who were moved hadn't opted to settle in one place and refuse to move upon being told that if they moved their land could be used to ease the suffering of millions of people.
[/quote]

Which would be relevant if one forgets that Federation medical technology being able pretty much already do it makes the sudden need for the particles pretty stupid.

Not to mention this is the first time the federation has been shown to give a crap about living forever.

If you're going to issue implicit criticisms of those who don't agree with your views, I recommend picking an analogy that would fit better.
Not really it's still the federation taking someone else's planet becuase they have something the federation wants.

And no I don't see a substance that let's people live for over 280 years instead of 140 when their tech could probably already do that for them as a pressing need.

Especially after the Federation according to Dougherty plans to keep the particles for themselves.

So really still looks like the Federation is being imperialistic douche nozzles.
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Old March 17 2014, 08:21 PM   #384
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
The phrase "the ends justify the means" seems to be applicable to many opinions on this situation, even if no one has put it in those words up to this point. The problem with that is that once you can convince yourself that it is ok in one instance, it's easy to apply it in the next.

That looks like a very slippery slope to me.
For me, it actually comes down to more than that. For me, the Ba'ku will eventually run out of time when their secret gets out. For me, it's better to move them now than see them obliterated by the Romulans or Klingons or Cardassians trying to obtain the particles. For me, it's better to move them instead of risking Starfleet lives defending six hundred people who won't protect themselves.

For me.
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Old March 17 2014, 08:25 PM   #385
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
The phrase "the ends justify the means" seems to be applicable to many opinions on this situation, even if no one has put it in those words up to this point. The problem with that is that once you can convince yourself that it is ok in one instance, it's easy to apply it in the next.

That looks like a very slippery slope to me.


I'm not sure there are really a lot of comparable scenarios to "small village of selfish bastards hoard cure to cancer," which is more or less the situation given in INS, but if there WERE, I certainly would hope that in all of those scenarios, the greater good(or ends) would prevail, as they SHOULD have here if the writer had a competent understanding of how to write a dilemma.


Putting all of that aside, the argument for removal also rests on the straightforward case that:

1. the planet's in Federation space

2. The Son'a have every right to the planet even if the Federation doesn't (so really either way the Baku are getting removed by someone with a legitimate claim)

3. The Baku aren't even indigenous to the planet
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Old March 17 2014, 08:48 PM   #386
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Sonak:

Selfish bastards?

The Baku had been living peacefully on the planet for hundreds of years. The planet was uninhabited when they found it, and decided to settle there long before any claims to the surrounding space. Their wish to be left alone is something the Federation must respect, regardless of the Baku's ability to achieve warp travel.

Since there was no initial indication that the Baku were anything but what they appeared to be, the Federation should have left them alone. Prime Directive. Period.

If they wanted to experiment with the radiation or particles or whatever, they could have done so without the Baku ever knowing. The fact that the Federation Council took the Sona at their word is a demonstration of how people can be made to compromise their values by the lure of possible immortality.

The Sona are the selfish ones here, demonstrated by their abandonment of their families only to come back when they found that they didn't like growing old. And Dougherty was a self-important jerk.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:04 PM   #387
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

urbandefault wrote: View Post

The Sona are the selfish ones here, demonstrated by their abandonment of their families only to come back when they found that they didn't like growing old. And Dougherty was a self-important jerk.
Say what? They were kicked off the planet because they wanted to do more than to be slaves to an Amish lifestyle. That should be incredibly offensive to someone like Picard.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:07 PM   #388
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

[QUOTE=BillJ;9370339]
urbandefault wrote: View Post
it's better to move them now than see them obliterated by the Romulans
Assuming a race with a natural lifetime that is already several centuries long would care. Besides after the Shinzon debatical and their planet being destroyed the Romulans don't look like they are in any position to conquer anything.

or Klingons
Yeah, Klingons don't give a shit about advances in medical technology or quality of life stuff.

They care about military applications of which there are none.

Plus they are probably running around attacking what's left of the Romulan Empire.

or Cardassians trying to obtain the particles.
The Cardassian Union was devastated by the Dominion War what makes you think they well be able to invade anything any sooner than decades from the 2370s and that when they are rebuilt that the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans would leave them with a government and military force willing and able to engage in a campaign of conquest.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:12 PM   #389
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
...
Whoosh!

Of course the Romulans wouldn't be interested in doubling their life span from two to four hundred years. Perish the thought. I've shot down the Klingon non-sense before. The Cardassians? Who knows? Since Insurrection takes place before the end of Deep Space Nine.
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Old March 17 2014, 09:16 PM   #390
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
urbandefault wrote: View Post

The Sona are the selfish ones here, demonstrated by their abandonment of their families only to come back when they found that they didn't like growing old. And Dougherty was a self-important jerk.
Say what? They were kicked off the planet because they wanted to do more than to be slaves to an Amish lifestyle. That should be incredibly offensive to someone like Picard.
The movie is coming around in my rotation in the next couple of days, so I'll take a look at that again.

But my understanding was that the Sona wanted to advance and explore. The Baku said fine, but we don't want that. So, off you go. Same as if a rebellious teen coming of legal age might say, and often does, "I don't like your rules so I'm not following them (but I expect you to still be responsible for my housing and food and clothing)." That's when you say to the teen, "Time for you to move out. We love you, but if you want to live here you must follow the rules."

The Sona weren't expelled, they left of their own accord. And much like the rebellious teen, they found that reality was much different than they had imagined.

If the Sona didn't want to live within the boundaries set by their settlement, they could have just moved to the other side of the planet and done whatever they wanted. But they left, and suffered the effects of natural aging and all the aches and pains that come with it. Their attempts to maintain a youthful image through the skin stretching and whatever is a dead giveaway. Add to that Ruafo's temper tantrums, and you have a very good example of arrested development.

I'll look at it again, but I don't think it will change my mind.
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